"Video games can never be art"

[Jeff-20]

Roger Ebert is a good guy I've had the privilege to have met and worked with at my college. During my childhood, he had a big television career as a movie critic. Some of you may know him.

In this recent article, he explains why he believes games cannot be art with some interesting examples. Of course, I disagree, but it's an interesting read.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04 ... e_art.html

[Vic20-Ian]

FAIL!

I didn't read it but...

He is just wrong - you just need to power up MAME or 3D Arcade and walk around the virtual arcade to see, and hear the art. Galaxian "peeshoo" shot sound will stay with me as much as the image of the Mona Lisa.

Llamasoft cover art, Gfx and sound fx beats many movies and other works of art for me

[rhurst]

At least his opinion and perspective are consistent, making for a credible argument. I am guessing his point was why the need for this third party validation that a video game is art. Who really cares? Just count art versus computer math/science classes and that should provide a hint where today's society is gravitating -- like it or not.

The art of video game making parallels the art of film making. Like a movie, a video game encompasses art; it is not art on itself, because it is a product created to invoke an emotional / interactive response from its story / action. A Walt Disney production sequences art for its animation, but I don't see how the film (the end product) could be called art.

And a dance is not art either, Mr. Ebert, although I don't think he ever pointedly said that, but he did make dance as a reference to art definition.

And Ebert's bigotry was revealing when he spoke of "brainless" video games, i.e., a shooting gallery. Clearly, Ebert's brain is wired for turn-based events: watch movie, write review. Or playing chess. Games requiring real-time actions/reactions are not brainless; don't let the nerds intimidate you with their heady indifference -- instead, I think of them as incomplete wiring jobs -- like C3PO.

[DanSolo]

The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it.

The guy just doesn't like video games. He is really letting that get in the way of his conclusions on whether games are art. Jackson Pollock doesn't deserve my attention either, but some people seem to be of the opinion that his stuff is art. Games most certainly contain artwork, which in my mind means they must be some form of art. At the end of the day if a light going on and off is art, then a load of pixels going on and off definitely is too.

[Jeff-20]

Link broken. But I do see some valid points in the non-art argument. I think the commercial nature of videogames greatly limits personal expression, but many of us make games with no commercial intent whatsoever.

[saehn]

There's no one definition of art that's going to satisfy everyone anyway, so it's kind of a moot point. The general consensus on art seems to resemble rhurst's description: the purposeful personal expression of an idea with the intent of provoking a response. Whether something is good art or bad art is another question, one that's often best answered by people who have studied and/or worked with that particular medium, IMO. Again, there's no absolute perspective on art, just whatever works within a society.

Edit: oops, rhurst not Jeff

[saehn]

Usually, too: the primary function of a game is to play it for entertainment. They often contain creative/artistic elements, but those aren't what defines the gameplay (essential to the GAME). It makes me think of a well-crafted checkerboard, or a chess set designed by a sculptor. Sometimes the game itself is secondary to the artistic expression, but that's not usually the case. A notable exception would be Passage, but that's decidedly "un-gamelike".

[saehn]

Last post, sorry. So while many games perhaps aren't art and probably aren't intended to be, that doesn't mean that games can't be art. Some conceptual art is wholly participatory. Games can be a type of concept art; having a computer as the platform doesn't necessarily invalidate the entire concept. A non-participatory film can be art, but a participatory animation (née game) can't be?

Oh, and I'm not sure why he said that dance can't be art. A lot of people would disagree with him about that. It's a pretty long-held perspective, dance as an artform.

[Jeff-20]

There was a time when I thought almost every game captured some basic human preoccupation. THe gluttony of Pacman. The xenophobic tone of Space Invaders. Even my little games captured something on my mind at the time. Only You was when I thought a lot about dating and how people found the right partners. Ten Ten was when I thought a lot about how to achieve one's personal goal while in a relationship. Maybe the art is in conveying that personal thought to audience. So what makes a juggling a ball between two paddles any less of an expression?

I kinda hate categories because they always seem to lead to these kind of arguments. Once, for sport, I mad an argument on another message board that Pacman should be considered a Survival Horror game. I was just being an ass at the time, but my point is that it's so hard to box stuff in. I think once even referred to one of my games as survival horror as if that's even possible on the VIC! haha

[rhurst]

... It makes me think of a well-crafted checkerboard ...

That's an excellent reference and point. I think in general we end up evaluating things in a material sense and put them into a category: sports, dance, paintings, toys, games ... they are products serving a purpose. How often we hear GMs speak of putting a team out on the field as "a product" and the players refer to their sport as "entertainment"? So what is dance? Like sports and video games, it comes in many form -- and I would dare to say some approach art -- but I would not summarily categorize dance in with art. Would one say that the sport synchronized swimming is art?

When that gaudy chess set is made with some theme in mind, i.e. Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, etc., the pieces and playing board are artful (or it would not sell), and it certainly can be used to play a game, but it was meant to sit in someone's room as an expression of sophistication and/or wealth. Still, others that are into that same theme may view it differently as a work of art, rather than a materialistic expression.

And Jeff's assessment that Pac-Man is a Survival Horror game put a new thought in my head -- which will probably manifest itself in a future nightmare. Thanks.

[Kananga]

Once, for sport, I mad an argument on another message board that Pacman should be considered a Survival Horror game.

Will never feel save again while playing Pac-Man ...

[Mike]

And Jeff's assessment that Pac-Man is a Survival Horror game put a new thought in my head -- which will probably manifest itself in a future nightmare. Thanks.

A nightmare with vivid images:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/pac- ... ac-man.jpg

[robinsonmason]

I wonder if I were to ask Howard Sherman of Malinche Entertainment if the book-forms of his interactive text adventures qualify as literature or "art" what he'd have to say. If you agree that literature=art, does making something 2nd person and interactive disqualify it as "art"? While the story might have multiple possible endings (or ways to lose before you get there), it has all been pre-written.

I think the first time I considered "art" in video games seriously was in Outland / Hellfire Peninsula in the World of Warcraft. The sky is like something out of a science fiction painting...but it moves. With streaks of lightning. And a nice soundtrack. It got me to sit and stare at my surroundings and appreciate it like any piece of art.

In retrospect I appreciate the efforts that went into retro computer "art" now.

As far as the original article and related comments on the page, to say "video games will never be art" seems to me to be striking out at interactive media in general.

I recall movie theaters had the idea of allowing buttons for the audience as a group to determine the course of the main character / what could happen. Would this be eliminated as "art" due to the interactive nature, all other things - the actor, the primary story, being the same?

Can a single frame of a Don Bluth animated movie be considered "art"?

What then of a single frame of Dragon's Lair or Space Ace laserdisc arcade games?

[Wilson]

Electroplankton is my favorite game, and I certainly don't play it to be entertained by its gameplay. Rather, I play it because I am drawn to its art style. The creator, Toshio Iwai, makes a living producing, among other things, interactive media as art.

One could argue that Electroplankton is not truly a game because it lacks goals or challenge or whatever else. For lack of a better classification, games such as it are sometimes categorized in the "games as art" genre. There are certainly art styles in other games with more "game-like" elements that have greater appeal than Electroplankton to other people. Okami comes to mind. My point is, as robinsonmason was saying, I think games' graphical styles should be enough to classify them as art.

Games like Photopia or Passage (as saehn mentioned) represent a different form of games as art, where the artistic qualities come from the emotional impact instead of the visual or musical qualities. I stumbled upon a strange old C64 game called "Deus Ex Machina" (video), which shows that these kind of "experience" games have been around for a long time.

Given how many examples of games as art there are in the small period of time that video games have existed, I don't think the author of that article has much of a case. Then again, the definitions of the words "art" and "game" are not definable with complete absolution, so there will always be those that try to argue each way.

By the way, when I was a kid I thought Pac-Man was scary .

[Jeff-20]

Anyone ever play The Graveyard? Now that truly escapes the definition of game while still retaining all the familiar "elements" of a game.

I recommend you play it without first reading the description. Says the developer,

It's more like an explorable painting than an actual game. An experiment with realtime poetry, with storytelling without words.

Deus Ex Machina looks interesting but not the kind of game I would enjoy. I am interested in the idea of an external soundtrack. If I attach a scripted MP3 to a game file, do you think it would be used?