Denial

First of all, I think that the assumption that he bought this stuff from money he's made or won is a little presumptuous in today's culture of credit. Most anybody with a regular job has access to tens of thousands of dollars from AmEx, Mastercard and Visa as well as most major banks. If I had a mind to, I could buy Worldlam's entire inventory from him right now because I have access to that much credit.

As for the '57 Chevy, brand new parts are readily available that one could easily rebuild one from practically nothing at all. Sure, it wouldn't really be a '57 Chevy, but the fact remains that it can, and has, been done. From the fenders and various body panels right down to the carburated Chevy smallblock.

eslapion wrote:Let me ask you all this question...

If you stumbled upon a WORKING PDP-11 in a warehouse full of obsolete computer junk and knew that the owner of the place didn't know its value and was willing to get rid of it for the cost of transporting it to your place, would you take it and then try to sell it to collectors?

I had a PDP-11 (I can't remember which model #) back in 1987.
Other that space and power requirements, the big issue is software that makes the hardware useful.

I was working with a group to set it up as a BBS system since (by those days standards) it had a pile of HD storage.
We did have the system online for a year or so.

These days, a PDP-11 is interesting to look at, but not very functional.
As time passes, the folks that could make this hardware/software perform declines.

I see historic value as low (and it dimmishes very quickly). I would not bet my retirement savings on old compute hardware .

DQ mentioned the Chevy '57. Chevy '57 ARE worth a small fortune but I don't know of any company that manufactures them again.

It is quite simple for a purchaser of a '57 Chevy to operate/drive it with no special skills required.

Others (non geeks) can appreciate its value based on its function (transport) and styling as an automobile.

I tried selling my 32k expanders on eBay and nobody wants them... because they weren't made in 1982...

The Denial forum is the forum for Vic-20 users.

The target marget for new Vic-20 products is very limited.

It is unlikely that you will obtain new sales on e-bay vs. members on this forum.

Worldlam may not be the best businessman but he's right about one thing. Eventually these things are going to be worth what he asks for and maybe a lot more.

I disagree.

How much would you pay for a scrub board to do your washing?

We also need to bear in mind that even the legendary '57 Chevy, while sought after and very much a collectible, can still be had for a reasonable price competitive with modern automobiles:

http://www.trader.ca/Search/Details.asp ... 6102999%7C
http://www.canadatrader.com/result/deta ... no=1&srt=1

Also, as 6502dude pointed out, our beloved Commodores don't enjoy the same widespread appeal of a classic car no matter how rare and impressive the hardware.

Jeff-20 is bang-on with the real investment opportunity. However, there's no doubt that there is money to be made in the vintage computer market...but one would need to acquire the hardware at nothing or next to nothing to make it a worthwhile venture. Also, you have to be willing to part with the hardware...something I would find very difficult to do.

DigitalQuirk wrote:... Also, you have to be willing to part with the hardware...something I would find very difficult to do.

Yet... there were VIC-1001 selling for more than 500$ on eBay. These were probably acquired for peanuts in flee markets at some point or at a garage sale.

The huge pile of Commodore equipment I have been selling lately on eBay over the last year was donated to me... by a man who liked that kind of stuff very much but couldn't afford the energy, time and storage space to keep it anymore.

People like that are getting more and more scarce.

DigitalQuirk wrote:First of all, I think that the assumption that he bought this stuff from money he's made or won is a little presumptuous in today's culture of credit. Most anybody with a regular job has access to tens of thousands of dollars from AmEx, Mastercard and Visa as well as most major banks. If I had a mind to, I could buy Worldlam's entire inventory from him right now because I have access to that much credit.

I think you may be right. He boasted on Lemon64 that he had a new credit card now with a "very high credit limit", and when I googled "worldlam credit card" I found a page where he said it was $75000. So it looks like he has put himself in debt over this, which is very sad.

Wonderboy wrote:I think you may be right. He boasted on Lemon64 that he had a new credit card now with a "very high credit limit", and when I googled "worldlam credit card" I found a page where he said it was $75000. So it looks like he has put himself in debt over this, which is very sad.

Well, if he did something like that then the interests are just going to crunch him alive.

Sure enough there are things he could sell at some profit but for these things to increase that much in value, it is going to take a good amount of time, a couple of years I would say.

The best investments for those only concerned with money are those investments with more universal appeal: fuel, food, property, even pop culture entertainment... This is a hobby. Scoring something hobby-related at a thrift store is like winning the lottery or winning at a casio. It's refreshing and fun at times, but you shouldn't rely on it for income. Imagine a stock portfolio that is 50% lottery tickets and 50% cash earmarked for Vegas. I was terribly surprised when I first heard of non-game players buying up Atari carts to make money in the future (seriously!). These guys need better financial advisors. I agree; the interest on a credit card, the storage of all of the items, etc. far out-weighs any cash profit that could be gained.

Looks like Worldlam hasn't been too good with money in the past...

http://creditboards.com/forums/lofivers ... 57346.html

I take it that BK is a nice, brief way of writing bankruptcy. Some people never learn...

I predict a firesale of some great rare Commodore items in a few months; easy come, easy go, Worldlam...

Jeff-20 wrote:The best investments for those only concerned with money are those investments with more universal appeal: fuel, food, property, even pop culture entertainment...

I think the best investment a person can make is in owning their own home. Even if you never plan on selling to cash in your investment, you work your way to the point where you only have to pay the taxes and bills, allowing one to retire on a much lower income while maintaining a decent lifestyle. I know people who manage quite well on just the meager Canada Pension Plan when they retire simply because they own their own home.

DigitalQuirk wrote:Looks like Worldlam hasn't been too good with money in the past...

http://creditboards.com/forums/lofivers ... 57346.html

I take it that BK is a nice, brief way of writing bankruptcy. Some people never learn...

I predict a firesale of some great rare Commodore items in a few months; easy come, easy go, Worldlam...

Amazing, if you read the thread (and if this is the same guy) it seems like the $70K in credit from a previous thread mention ties in with his new credit cards he's received lately Declare bankruptcy and what he buys and sells in the future is 100% profit at the least

Here's another thread from these boards that talk about the $75K creditcard:
http://www.creditboards.com/forums/lofi ... 30777.html

Yeah, I have two minds about this.

Some people have been using Commodore gear for 25 years+ continuously and seen the value of Commodore hardware and software decline to almost nothing for most of that time. It is hard for those people to realise that there is now a new 'collector' market for this equipment that will force the prices up over time.

I didn't re-enter the market for Commodore equipment because I thought it would necessarily be a cheap hobby - I re-entered because I have an interest in it and there is no substitute for the original equipment. Over time there will only ever be less available original hardware.

I might not pay that amount for MAX software, but in honesty - it must be pretty thin on the ground. If I really wanted to buy a MAX cart, I'd have no idea where to get one. I'd have no idea how much to pay. Perhaps some Denial members are sitting on goldmines that in a few years will be worth a small fortune..

On the other hand - I am against the 'collector' mentality itself- things should be used for the purpose they were created, not vacuum-sealed and put away. The market for sentimentality is way overvalued. Play the game on VICE, give the $600 to something more worthwhile instead.

-G

I recall looking at comic book price guides as a kid. Many of the note-worthy comics of the 80s are worth about the same ammount today with few exceptions. And recent movies have made many of these characters universal popular culture icons. Still, the comics sell for pretty cheap on ebay about the same prices they sold for 20 years ago.

Victragic wrote:On the other hand - I am against the 'collector' mentality itself- things should be used for the purpose they were created, not vacuum-sealed and put away. The market for sentimentality is way overvalued. Play the game on VICE, give the $600 to something more worthwhile instead.

Amen.

I just want to say that I consider myself a "Collector" of vintage computers, but that the term "Collector" doesn't automatically mean that I want to seal away my collection from the world. I just want to keep it away from those who might put their foot through a datasette or something. I collect these things so that I, and others who actually appreciate them, can use them from time to time. Also so that I can leave something I think is really cool for my grandchildren.

DQ,

I differentiate between collectors who are hobbyists (such as yourself and I'd reckon everyone who has registered on Denial) and collectors who have no intrinsic interest in the machine.

Perhaps there needs to be a new term to differentiate between Commodore and 'Come-and-hoard' buyers..

-G