MiniGame Compo 2009 ?

carlsson · Post by **carlsson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:34 am

Is anyone planning to enter this year's MiniGame compo? So far the VIC-20 is not represented in 2009.

Deadline for entering the 1K category is July 31 (14 entries)
Deadline for entering the 2K category is September 30 (4 entries)
Deadline for entering the 4K category is November 30 (2 entries)

http://minigamecomp.org.uk/

Currently it looks like I won't have time to finish anything decent this year neither, but perhaps someone else has a game in the pipeline.

Since this topic may fit into both Programming and Games, I put it in General instead.

Ghislain · Post by **Ghislain** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:48 am

The 4K category is a good fit for the unexpanded VIC-20 as you can make a game that uses up all of it's native memory and still qualify.

However, I've no plan to submit any games this year.

Post by **Jeff-20** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:21 pm

I think I'm done with MiniGame. I always feel like the winner is going to be the best clone of Tetris or Pacman or something.

I don't mean to sound negative. The comments suggest each reviewer only spends a few seconds with each game and only plays it once. That's how most retro gamers including myself take in any game now. When's the last time you sat in front of your Atari VCS for hours exploring one cartridge? Without full immersion or multiple plays, it's easier to appreciate more familiar concepts, something you can get in 5 seconds because you played it before. I would be shocked if any reviewer actually played beyond one life or one level of any of these game entries.

Games popular in the retro community are based on nostalgia. When we were kids we took time to get to know a game. If pacman had been released now as a homebrew, it would be criticized as needlessly complex and maybe even too abstract in premise. Atari's much praised Adventure, as a contemporary release, would probably have lost our attention at the first blocky screen. Nostalgia and hype influence our positive memories, but games may never be evaluated the way they were...

The secret to making a good contemporary homebrew (or doing well in a contest like this) is taking something very familiar and very popular, like Boulderdash or Galaxian and remaking it for an unexpected platform. There's definitely and aesthetic for such things, but I don't think I'm very good at that. Don't get me wrong. I support the contest and think ideas like this are great for programmers. I really wish more would enter.

gklinger · Post by **gklinger** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Jeff-20 wrote:I think I'm done with MiniGame. I always feel like the winner is going to be the best clone of Tetris or Pacman or something.

You don't think (a variation on) Ten Ten Duality would have a chance? It presents well (e.g. the slick opening screen -- which sadly might have to go if you had to shrink the game down) and it's straightforward enough that it can be played and appreciated even by a person who only spends a short time with it.

Slightly OT: Ten Ten Duality would work very well on the iPhone.

English Invader · Post by **English Invader** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:20 pm

I'm finally going to ask; what's the point of Heist?

As far as I can see, it's just pure guesswork. You either guess the right ladders or you break your leg. When you get upstairs, you presumably spend an eternity trying to guess the security code. There doesn't seem to be any skill involved.

I was disappointed really because when I read the scenario it sounded like a lot of fun.

Post by **Jeff-20** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:54 pm

English Invader wrote:I'm finally going to ask; what's the point of Heist?

Heist was just the product of a conversation about violence and morality in games. Not really an inside joke, but just a one night project in response to an idea.

There's no guessing in the code. The number is just above you. So, if it says 123, you're goal would be to show 123 below.... Just match the numbers and adjust for the faulty last digit. (for example, if it rolls back once, then select a number one off and wait for it to roll back to the right number).

Likewise, the ladder screen is about remembering where the faulty ladders are and not repeating that path. The player will reach the top easily if he or she doesn't reuse a trick ladder.

It's not a great game, but it would require some time. This kinda illustrates my point. I may be frustrated with such a game as a player in the first 15 seconds and never revisit it. Can you imagine if we were introduced to pacman now, not as a kid? Would we know that ghosts are edible? What about Super Mario Bros.? "I keep walking up to punch the Goomba and I die!" I don't think it would be intuitive to jump on it. We just had more patience and interest in new ideas as kids.

gklinger wrote:You don't think (a variation on) Ten Ten Duality would have a chance?

I think TenTen would bomb! Horribly. Either as a failed attempt at a pacman maze game or for bad graphics. I wouldn't dare to enter it.

I'm starting to think of games as art and not product. I intentionally wanted very simple graphics; I must have been going for some kind of blocky minimalist aesthetic. It's also a slow game, even the opening screen delays game start. Even the parallels to that Pengo type game would be too obscure to make the game play fun to a retro gamer.

The whole game is well under 4k, but it could likely be considered to simplistic and not exciting enough. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm against the contest. I've entered maybe 5 or 6 in past years. I think it's fun, but I don't plan on entering any more soon.

gklinger · Post by **gklinger** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:38 pm

Jeff-20 wrote:I think TenTen would bomb! Horribly. Either as a failed attempt at a pacman maze game or for bad graphics. I wouldn't dare to enter it.

Bah! You're your harshest critic. Even if it doesn't win it will increase exposure for the game so where's the harm? It's my favourite of all your games so maybe I'm seeing it through rose-coloured glasses.

ravenxau · Post by **ravenxau** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:55 pm

I think TenTen would bomb! Horribly. Either as a failed attempt at a pacman maze game or for bad graphics. I wouldn't dare to enter it.

Jeff, with your expertise and style creating games in unexpanded BASIC - your games should be entered, so others can see what a great platform the VIC 20 is and what can be achieved.

English Invader · Post by **English Invader** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:54 pm

Jeff-20 wrote:[

Can you imagine if we were introduced to pacman now, not as a kid? Would we know that ghosts are edible?

I didn't get to play the original Pacman until I was about 21 (Game Boy Advance Pacman collection), although I had known Pacmania from the age of 12.

I see what you mean about the declining attention span in older gamers, but maybe the difference is that games were a lot more scarce when we were kids. Sega games were £30-£40 a throw -- on the rare occasions when I got a new Mega Drive/Game Gear game, I was pretty determined to make the most of it. These days, the same games are available for free on the internet or for a fraction of the original price on eBay. We can afford to be a lot more picky.

carlsson · Post by **carlsson** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:15 am

Frankly, I've come to think of the MiniGame compo as an incentive for me to develop something, not to get the reviews from other people. Previously I have rarely got any feedback on my prods anyway, so that is no difference.

Through the years of the 4K category, I think only 2-3 entries were really mind-numbingly good. Given what certain people manage to fit within 1K of code, I've mostly been displeased with 4K entries. That is also why I would aim for 1K games myself. If the game gets too big, perhaps 2K but even then something special is expected.

Since e.g. Jeff mostly programs in Basic, perhaps 1K of code is too narrow for him to get his creativity out. I'm sure if he picked up machine code programming he would reach new heights. Apart from faster execution, often the optimized code tends to get smaller. That is a thought, to step by step translate e.g. Ten-Ten Duality into machine code, see how much space you have left and then add some bells to it. As long as it is intuitive and playable, I think it would do rather well.

English Invader · Post by **English Invader** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:04 am

I know a game that someone could port or adapt to the VIC for this competition. It's called Duck Dash; an ST homebrew I found on a magazine disk circa 1992.

http://www.atarilegend.com/games/games_ ... me_id=1626

You can download the Steem Engine (ST emulator) at the following link:

http://steem.atari.st/

saehn · Post by **saehn** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:31 am

gklinger wrote:
Jeff-20 wrote:I think TenTen would bomb! Horribly. Either as a failed attempt at a pacman maze game or for bad graphics. I wouldn't dare to enter it.
Bah! You're your harshest critic. Even if it doesn't win it will increase exposure for the game so where's the harm? It's my favourite of all your games so maybe I'm seeing it through rose-coloured glasses.

Agreed! You should enter it, it's a good game! Certainly more enjoyable than a lot of the 4k games I've seen out there, and definitely more original. Plus, as I've mentioned to you and shown you in mock-ups, I'd love to provide some graphics assistance.

Go for it!

carlsson · Post by **carlsson** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:35 am

As a matter of fact, without Jeff's consent today I begun sketching on a ML version of Ten Ten. I'll see if I can get it to float. In that case, perhaps the three of us could team up with a graphically enhanced, possibly faster (if required?!) and even smaller version to enter the compo for fun.

I've come to the conclusion it is more fun to translate somebody else's program than write my own from scratch.

gklinger · Post by **gklinger** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:50 am

carlsson wrote:I've come to the conclusion it is more fun to translate somebody else's program than write my own from scratch.

Easier too. The hardest part for me is coming up with a decent idea that hasn't already been done or is obviously derivative. Ten Ten Duality is one of a few games that I wish I had come up with myself.

carlsson · Post by **carlsson** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:23 pm

Golan, if you like some brainstorming I am "all game". Heh. Not all ideas may be good or innovative but one never knows what is doable until it is dismissed.