My confession

[Richard James]

Recently I upgraded my aging computers memory from 1GB to 3GB on a whim. I did not have to pay for this upgrade, I got the parts from my parents business.

Under Ubuntu 8.04 there is no difference between 1GB and 3GB, even when using several memory intensive programs like the Gimp, OpenOffice and Eclipse.

When I dual boot into Windows XP to play games (it has a reason). There is little to no speed increase.

I would assume that my machine is CPU or Bandwidth locked. Meaning that the CPU or the internal buses (AGP) are the slow components. Also my Internet connection is slowing some things down as well.

You have to make sure that all of the components of a PC match in speed, otherwise one will slow the others down.

As for VISTA, I have only used it once. My cousin in law bought a new computer and wanted the Anti-Virus software changed. So I did that, I didn't have any problems with it. I felt the computer was a bit slow but then again I'm sure he bought a piece of junk. He did not ask me for any advice and I don't know if he asked anyone else in my family that has knowledge of computers. He went to one of the large retailers and bought I think it was a HP. Those name brand machines are always slower than custom built computers. Often the manufacturer may place slower components to reduce cost without giving thought to overall speed of the system. Sometimes they cripple the internal motherboard buses, I have seen such computers before. They list high specs but internally they are crippled.

Vista is like Crysis. If you want them to run well make sure you get some advice from several people who actually know how to put a computer together and don't just pick any old computer off the shelf.

[Boray]

When we bought my mother's laptop with Vista, we started a couple of computers in the same price range, looked at the performance numbers ( Control panel / system / system / performance (or something, I have the it in swedish )), and then we bougth the one with the best numbers... It was a HP. My computer is also a HP

The numbers for my computer is (AMD Athlon 3800+):
Processor: 4,3
Memory: 4,7
Graphics: 3,0
Game graphics: 3,0
Hard disk: 5,4

My mother's computer (Intel Pentium Dual CPU T2370 @ 1.73GHz):
Processor: 4,8
Memory: 4,4
Graphics: 3,2
Game gfx: 3,3
Hard disk: 5,2

[PaulQ]

Victragic, what processor do you have?

It's recommended to have 2GB of memory with Vista. I have that (but it's shared with the graphics). Right now 46% of my memory is used and I'm just running Firefox, Winamp and MSN. With 1GB (minus some for graphics), the memory would be quite full by now just running the absolute basics...

That's because of Superfetch. Here's an explanation:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.html

In other words, Vista tries to make as effective use of your memory as possible. If it's only using 46%, it's not as efficient as it could be using, say, 95%.

[Boray]

Aha!

[Victragic]

Victragic, what processor do you have?

It's recommended to have 2GB of memory with Vista. I have that (but it's shared with the graphics). Right now 46% of my memory is used and I'm just running Firefox, Winamp and MSN. With 1GB (minus some for graphics), the memory would be quite full by now just running the absolute basics...

Yeah - superfetch uses up available memory, again, more pre-empting which is fine if you do the same thing every time you log on.

Processor is an Intel M 1.73mhz.. the machine is an Acer Aspire 5315.

About 200 services started up automatically under my Vista - I don't know, but that seems like a lot. After installing Ubuntu, I went back to Vista and changed a lot of the 'automatic' startup services to 'manual'. Some of them were starters for 3rd-party progs I'll never use, that came pre-installed. Very unfriendly.

Microsoft should do something to kill that trend, as it deflects most loading time onto Vista startup, makes people angry at Microsoft when it's not all their fault.

Then again they designed a system that encourages that kind of development, so maybe it is.

[Bacon]

Fair points, most of them, DQ. I guess much of it is a matter of preference.

• I love the idea of creating jobs whenever I purchase commercial software. Certainly, open source has its place and creates a certain amount of jobs as well, but not to the same extent.

I tend to spend a more or less fixed amount of money on tech stuff. If I don't buy a Windows license that money will go towards other commercial software, such as games, or towards computer or music hardware. In any case, this will create jobs in at least the same amount.

[*]I find that most PC operating systems, even dating back to OS/2 Warp 3, have a high degree of reconfigurability to tailor whatever "Feel" I desire.

Feel is a very subjective quality. I've used Linux as my primary OS since 2004 and as a second OS since 1999 before that, and during that time I've discovered that I just can't seem to configure Windows to get the precise feel that I like. It has something to do with they way the cursor responds to mouse movements, the response when typing, things like that. Hard to put into words.

[*]100% of the programs I want and need are available in Windows, and I like the idea of being able to obtain software from a variety of sources; not just one central repository. That gives me a great degree of freedom.

In Linux, I have the freedom to do both, and I do occasionally get software form other places than the central repository. But most of the time there's no need.

Also, as I said in my last post, Linux runs 99.9% of the software I need or want – but windows only runs around 90%, unless you count software that I simply cannot afford. But that's down to personal preference and what your main uses are for your computer.

[*]I have complete control over my computer and its operating system. There is nothing Microsoft could do that would prevent me from doing whatever it is I want or need to do with my computer. If they could, I guarantee you they would be out of business by the end of the day. No corporation would tolerate that.

Read this and you may need to rethink that.

[*]Since I bought my computer with Vista pre-installed, I never had to deal with the "Product Activation." My computer and OS just worked when I first turned it on. However, I fail to see how "Registering" your product is akin to treating you like a criminal? What rights are you being denied, exactly?

When I bought a copy of XP, I first had to key in a license number to install it. I'm perfectly OK with that. But then I have to contact MS and have them "activate" the software. If I make substantial changes to my hardware I will have to do it again.

Probably no rights violated as such, but having to prove twice (or more) that I have a legal copy makes me feel treated like a potential criminal rather than a customer. Again, see the link above.

I always build my own computers to make sure that I get the best performance/price ratio. And because it's fun

[*]DRM isn't being pushed on me at all. I can play my MP3's, rip my CD's (even though Vista has no way of knowing if they're legally mine), even download new MP3's and play them all without worrying about DRM. i don't deny that it's there, I'm just saying that I still have all the freedom as I had with respect to digital media with Ubuntu Linux.[/list]

To save some virtual ink, I'll just advise you too look at what the Electronic Frontier Foundation has to say about DRM, vendor lock-in, fair use, and such.

I like the freedom of using whatever works best for my needs.

I agree with you there.

As for the criticism specifically against Vista, I've only heard about what people percieve as excessive hardware requirements, but that will sort itself out over time. I read about the UAC for the first time in a computer mag last week, and to me it actually seems like a good thing; it seems to work in much the same way as the sudo function in Ubuntu.

[Richard James]

When we bought my mother's laptop with Vista, we started a couple of computers in the same price range, looked at the performance numbers ( Control panel / system / system / performance (or something, I have the it in swedish )), and then we bougth the one with the best numbers... It was a HP. My computer is also a HP

For laptops you cannot easily buy custom built machines so sticking with the name brands is easier there.

The numbers for my computer is (AMD Athlon 3800+):
Processor: 4,3
Memory: 4,7
Graphics: 3,0
Game graphics: 3,0
Hard disk: 5,4

What do those numbers actually mean? How can you trust what they say? They also miss out on an important factor, bus speeds.

[PaulQ]

About 200 services started up automatically under my Vista - I don't know, but that seems like a lot. After installing Ubuntu, I went back to Vista and changed a lot of the 'automatic' startup services to 'manual'. Some of them were starters for 3rd-party progs I'll never use, that came pre-installed. Very unfriendly.

You were able to shut off all these automatic startups somehow, but it was unfriendly? In any case, thanks for the heads up...I bought a Presario which was pretty good with keeping the bloat down. Sounds like Acer isn't quite so good; something to keep in mind for the future. Frankly, i find Vista starts up a lot faster than XP did on my Presario.

I tend to spend a more or less fixed amount of money on tech stuff. If I don't buy a Windows license that money will go towards other commercial software, such as games, or towards computer or music hardware. In any case, this will create jobs in at least the same amount.

Me, I buy stuff as I need it. I see a certain value in the Microsoft operating system that I'm not seeing in Linux. For the most part, this amounts to the fact that I will be able to do whatever I want to use it for without worrying if it's supported.

Feel is a very subjective quality. I've used Linux as my primary OS since 2004 and as a second OS since 1999 before that, and during that time I've discovered that I just can't seem to configure Windows to get the precise feel that I like. It has something to do with they way the cursor responds to mouse movements, the response when typing, things like that. Hard to put into words.

Really? I haven't noticed any difference with cursor response or mouse movements between Ubuntu, OS/2 Warp, or any version of Windows. Maybe it's your hardware?

Also, as I said in my last post, Linux runs 99.9% of the software I need or want – but windows only runs around 90%, unless you count software that I simply cannot afford. But that's down to personal preference and what your main uses are for your computer.

I'm genuinely curious; what software can you run in Linux that you can't get for Windows? I've run Apache, the GIMP, OpenOffice all in Windows, so I'm truly wondering.

Read this and you may need to rethink that.

This assumes, of course, that: 1) the EULA is actually enforceable (in many cases, it is not); and 2) Microsoft would commit corporate suicide by shutting down someone's legit copy of Vista, no matter what it's running on.

Did you know that you can change the terms of many EULA's with a simple hex editor? Did you know that it is common for a "Contract" similar to an EULA to be changed before finally agreed upon? Did you know that clicking the mouse button on a box to which it says, "I agree to the terms of the EULA" doesn't necessarily constitute a legally binding agreement?

When I bought a copy of XP, I first had to key in a license number to install it. I'm perfectly OK with that. But then I have to contact MS and have them "activate" the software. If I make substantial changes to my hardware I will have to do it again.

Does it cost you anything to "Contact" Microsoft?

Probably no rights violated as such, but having to prove twice (or more) that I have a legal copy makes me feel treated like a potential criminal rather than a customer. Again, see the link above.

While it may make you feel like a criminal, that perception is entirely your own. When I go to a theme park, such as Canada's Wonderland, if I decide to leave the park to eat my own lunch, I need to "Prove" to them that I had already paid for my day at the park when I decide to reenter. It may make someone like you feel like a criminal. To the majority, it's pretty obvious that they simply don't want non-paying public in their park.

I always build my own computers to make sure that I get the best performance/price ratio. And because it's fun

I do to, except when it comes to laptops. Pretty hard to build one of those myself.

To save some virtual ink, I'll just advise you too look at what the Electronic Frontier Foundation has to say about DRM, vendor lock-in, fair use, and such.

Again, DRM hasn't changed the way I enjoy my music. I can still rip my CD's into MP3's and play them on my MP3 player without encountering DRM even once in Windows Vista. It's there, but I don't actually have to use it if I don't want.

As for the criticism specifically against Vista, I've only heard about what people percieve as excessive hardware requirements, but that will sort itself out over time. I read about the UAC for the first time in a computer mag last week, and to me it actually seems like a good thing; it seems to work in much the same way as the sudo function in Ubuntu.

Every new operating system seems to have seemingly excessive hardware requirements. Imagine how fast Windows 3.1 would be on a modern computer!

[Bacon]

Me, I buy stuff as I need it. I see a certain value in the Microsoft operating system that I'm not seeing in Linux. For the most part, this amounts to the fact that I will be able to do whatever I want to use it for without worrying if it's supported.

True. But what about the talk about a lack of hardware support in Vista? Or has that improved lately?

Feel is a very subjective quality. I've used Linux as my primary OS since 2004 and as a second OS since 1999 before that, and during that time I've discovered that I just can't seem to configure Windows to get the precise feel that I like. It has something to do with they way the cursor responds to mouse movements, the response when typing, things like that. Hard to put into words.

Really? I haven't noticed any difference with cursor response or mouse movements between Ubuntu, OS/2 Warp, or any version of Windows. Maybe it's your hardware?

As I said, difficult to put into words exactly what I mean. When I use Windows the mouse responds slightly differently compared to in Linux and I've never been able to make it behave exactly the same. But it's more than that, it's about the feel of the entire GUI. That's not a fault of Windows, it's just a matter of personal preference. (It could also be bias and self-deception. We humans are very good at that )

Also, as I said in my last post, Linux runs 99.9% of the software I need or want – but windows only runs around 90%, unless you count software that I simply cannot afford. But that's down to personal preference and what your main uses are for your computer.

I'm genuinely curious; what software can you run in Linux that you can't get for Windows? I've run Apache, the GIMP, OpenOffice all in Windows, so I'm truly wondering.

digiKam photo management, Amarok media player (I prefer it over Windows Media player), Kuickshow picture viewer (like Preview in Windows, but works much better IMO), Konqueror file manager (the best file manager I've ever used in any OS, but its successor Dolphin is getting there too). I'm sure there are others that I can't think of right now.
Of course there are alternatives to all of them in Windows, but I prefer these over the alternatives I've tried.

This assumes, of course, that: 1) the EULA is actually enforceable (in many cases, it is not); and 2) Microsoft would commit corporate suicide by shutting down someone's legit copy of Vista, no matter what it's running on.

Did you know that you can change the terms of many EULA's with a simple hex editor? Did you know that it is common for a "Contract" similar to an EULA to be changed before finally agreed upon? Did you know that clicking the mouse button on a box to which it says, "I agree to the terms of the EULA" doesn't necessarily constitute a legally binding agreement?

I did not know any of that. I stand corrected.

When I bought a copy of XP, I first had to key in a license number to install it. I'm perfectly OK with that. But then I have to contact MS and have them "activate" the software. If I make substantial changes to my hardware I will have to do it again.

Does it cost you anything to "Contact" Microsoft?

It costs me time and effort (although not much of either, I grant you that).

Probably no rights violated as such, but having to prove twice (or more) that I have a legal copy makes me feel treated like a potential criminal rather than a customer. Again, see the link above.

While it may make you feel like a criminal, that perception is entirely your own. When I go to a theme park, such as Canada's Wonderland, if I decide to leave the park to eat my own lunch, I need to "Prove" to them that I had already paid for my day at the park when I decide to reenter. It may make someone like you feel like a criminal. To the majority, it's pretty obvious that they simply don't want non-paying public in their park.

I know that's the way Microsoft and many other software companies see it, but I suspect most people think that when they buy a disc with a program, be it an OS or an other kind of software, they buy an actual copy of the program, not just a license to use it. I know I do. To use another analogy: I never went to the theme park, I bought a DVD with a movie about theme parks. I shouldn't have to get the movie company's explicit permission every time I want to play it on another DVD player.

Again, DRM hasn't changed the way I enjoy my music. I can still rip my CD's into MP3's and play them on my MP3 player without encountering DRM even once in Windows Vista. It's there, but I don't actually have to use it if I don't want.

True as long as you only rip your own CDs, but if you want to buy music online in digital format you'll have to put up with DRM. Of course, using Linux means I can't play DRM crippled files at all, but I vote with my wallet and don't buy such music. The way MS has actively pushed for the use of DRM is also one (although minor) reason for me to hesitate to buy their products.

Every new operating system seems to have seemingly excessive hardware requirements. Imagine how fast Windows 3.1 would be on a modern computer!

My point exactly. I don't hold Vista's requirements against it.

As for my other points, I haven't used Vista, so I don't know how its built-in utilities stack up against my favorite Linux apps.

Anyway, as I said in my first post, it mostly comes down to personal preference. I'm very happy with Kubuntu, so for the time being I'll stick with it.

[Boray]

What do those numbers actually mean? How can you trust what they say? They also miss out on an important factor, bus speeds.

Today there are as many processor models as computers so comparing performance numbers is at least better than having no clue at all...

[Richard James]

Today there are as many processor models as computers so comparing performance numbers is at least better than having no clue at all...

This is sadly true. And there are many unscrupulous sales people who take advantage of a buyers lack of knowledge. Everything you can do to inform yourself about your purchase is a good move. I don't want to insinuate that I know more about PC's than other people. There are many things to know about computers and sadly one lifetime is not enough. All I know is that I don't know it all. Weird how the more you know the more you know the less you know (wait does that make sense?).

[carlsson]

This morning I got to taste the Vista experience. A local customer having problems reaching our site simply handed in their laptop for us to find the cause.

To use Windows without real mouse is horrible. To manoeuver Vista with only the touchpad was a bit of a nightmare.. I think I accidentally misplaced a folder or two, but I couldn't find them afterwards.

In the end, the problem in question was not found until I fired up a good old command shell and could navigate the directory structure with DIR and CD. Nothing beats text!

[PaulQ]

True. But what about the talk about a lack of hardware support in Vista? Or has that improved lately?

The Vista certified hardware compatibility list currently stands at 221 pages, and the works with Vista list stands at 167 pages:

http://winqual.microsoft.com/hcl/Default.aspx

digiKam photo management, Amarok media player (I prefer it over Windows Media player), Kuickshow picture viewer (like Preview in Windows, but works much better IMO), Konqueror file manager (the best file manager I've ever used in any OS, but its successor Dolphin is getting there too). I'm sure there are others that I can't think of right now.
Of course there are alternatives to all of them in Windows, but I prefer these over the alternatives I've tried.

According to Wikipedia, DigiKam is currently on its way to the Windows platform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiKam
Amarok2 compiled under Windows last year: http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/374 ... ndows.html
Kuickshow and Konqueror (and other apps) will run on Windows with the freely available NX: http://www.danka.de/printpro/NX.html

I know that's the way Microsoft and many other software companies see it, but I suspect most people think that when they buy a disc with a program, be it an OS or an other kind of software, they buy an actual copy of the program, not just a license to use it. I know I do. To use another analogy: I never went to the theme park, I bought a DVD with a movie about theme parks. I shouldn't have to get the movie company's explicit permission every time I want to play it on another DVD player.

While technically all Windows products and Microsoft products are "Licensed," most people feel otherwise. Proof of this is evident when we see people continuing to use Windows '95, '98, ME, and various versions of NT long after they've been discontinued. There exists a pretty vast user support base for these discontinued Microsoft OS's. In fact, I just downloaded a "Service Pack" for Windows ME for my son's computer, which was put together by members of that community.

http://www.msfn.org/board/Service-Pack- ... 61407.html


Again, if the day should come that Microsoft would stop someone from using their licensed copy of Windows, I would expect the backlash from both the public and corporations to bankrupt Microsoft.

True as long as you only rip your own CDs, but if you want to buy music online in digital format you'll have to put up with DRM. Of course, using Linux means I can't play DRM crippled files at all, but I vote with my wallet and don't buy such music. The way MS has actively pushed for the use of DRM is also one (although minor) reason for me to hesitate to buy their products.

Unless you buy music online that doesn't have DRM; that will still work fine in Windows Vista. Just a matter of finding artists that sell their music without DRM. For example, I can buy and download music from here and it plays fine without DRM:

http://www.janesiberry.com/

Anyway, as I said in my first post, it mostly comes down to personal preference. I'm very happy with Kubuntu, so for the time being I'll stick with it.

It is good that there's a choice. What interests me is the fact that there are still many people who choose to stick with Windows '95 and manage to keep it reasonably up to date. Interesting that older discontinued Microsoft products still remain a viable choice for many people today.

[Boray]

They also miss out on an important factor, bus speeds.

I don't think so. How can you make a test on how fast it is to read data from the memory or harddisk etc without going through the data bus???

[Richard James]

They also miss out on an important factor, bus speeds.

I don't think so. How can you make a test on how fast it is to read data from the memory or harddisk etc without going through the data bus???

They don't take into account things like what if multiple bus lines are used at the same time? They also don't take into account things like the USB bus speeds. Most of the time these things don't matter but I remember one customer being speechless because he could not use USB properly due to the way it had been handled by the motherboard.