Which new games would you like to see on your VIC20?
Elite Mock-up pic
I've been browsing this forum the last few weeks and this thread got my special attention. I think Elite would be do-able on the VIC-20 by converting the C64-version.
The C64 only uses 256 x 144 resolution for the vector-Graphics and 256 x 56 for the instruments. I've grabbed a picture of the C64-Elite and transferred it to the VIC. The resolution I used is 128x208 leaving the last 8 lines blank - this is exactly half the C64-width.
The instruments are done by a Raster-Interrupt multicolor-split mode on the C64. The VIC doesn't need this since it can mix multicolor chars with hires or one can leave it monochrome as it is here - like the Electron version which was only 24k anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_%28video_game%29
If the C64 can do Hires vector graphics, the VIC should be able to as well, especially with only half the resolution. I noticed the C64 cheats by only drawing about half the lines of an object each frame - with movement this looks like a whole object anyway.
To view the pic an 8k expansion is needed. Boot up the VIC (or VICE), then type
poke648,30:poke642,32:sys64821
[return]
load "elitepic",8,1
[return]
run
[return]
the ,8,1 is important. Since the picture is at $1000 and Basic-RAM has been shifted to $1e00
http://www.tokra.de/vic/ELITEPIC.P00
Comments?
The C64 only uses 256 x 144 resolution for the vector-Graphics and 256 x 56 for the instruments. I've grabbed a picture of the C64-Elite and transferred it to the VIC. The resolution I used is 128x208 leaving the last 8 lines blank - this is exactly half the C64-width.
The instruments are done by a Raster-Interrupt multicolor-split mode on the C64. The VIC doesn't need this since it can mix multicolor chars with hires or one can leave it monochrome as it is here - like the Electron version which was only 24k anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_%28video_game%29
If the C64 can do Hires vector graphics, the VIC should be able to as well, especially with only half the resolution. I noticed the C64 cheats by only drawing about half the lines of an object each frame - with movement this looks like a whole object anyway.
To view the pic an 8k expansion is needed. Boot up the VIC (or VICE), then type
poke648,30:poke642,32:sys64821
[return]
load "elitepic",8,1
[return]
run
[return]
the ,8,1 is important. Since the picture is at $1000 and Basic-RAM has been shifted to $1e00
http://www.tokra.de/vic/ELITEPIC.P00
Comments?
- orion70
- VICtalian
- Posts: 4272
- Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:45 am
- Location: Piacenza, Italy
- Occupation: Biologist
OK guys - what else? Doom? MS Flight Simulator? Europa Universalis?
I hope some ML wizard will be able to program a VIC version of Elite in the future. Other games which seemed to be impossible years ago were born here, so nothing is impossible. Still, I haven't lost the sense of surprise each time a new milestone is declared feasable.
I hope some ML wizard will be able to program a VIC version of Elite in the future. Other games which seemed to be impossible years ago were born here, so nothing is impossible. Still, I haven't lost the sense of surprise each time a new milestone is declared feasable.
- Pedro Lambrini
- Vic 20 Scientist
- Posts: 1132
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:36 am
- Mike
- Herr VC
- Posts: 4941
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Munich, Germany
- Occupation: electrical engineer
Re: Elite Mock-up pic
This would be the hidden line removal you're speaking of - I wouldn't call this cheating, rather an advancement over a simple wireframe display.tokra wrote:I noticed the C64 cheats by only drawing about half the lines of an object each frame - with movement this looks like a whole object anyway.
While we're at it ...
<fx sound="me rummaging through the depths of my HD">
AH! There it is!
</fx>
This one requires +24K, and (with VICE 2.2) is best viewed with aspect ratio 0.75 (really 1.5:1 as compromise between PAL, and NTSC):
(download)
It is actually 7 years old, and the arithmetics inside could be streamlined a lot for much lesser storage requirements, but for a demo ...
Last edited by Mike on Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Your demo is quite impressive and shows what the VIC is capable of.
I didn't mean hidden line removal though, Elite does that anyway. I meant that for each displayed frame only half the lines are drawn at all. You can check this with VICE-C64-emulator and stopping the emulator. Only about half of the visible lines will be shown, that's probably why Elite flickers so much, it's basically 2 x 12 frames instead of 24. Probably they couldn't get to a reasonable speed otherwise.
Porting this to the VIC should be possible. The laser-crosshair is a sprite on the C64, this would have to be painted extra, but with only half the resolution hopefully there's some time left. Does anyone know if the C64-Elite-source is around somewhere? There were some hacks for the C128 and Plus/4 so some people are bound to have reverse engineered this version already. "Only" the main graphics display engine would have to be converted to the VIC and the few sounds and music there is would have to be done from scratch, apart from that Elite is basically a text-game. Elite doesn't use any special C64 powers the VIC doesn't have. The stripped down 24k version for the Acorn Electron proves the game can fit in very small RAM as well. And the VIC-20 has 40K RAM if needed (5K Standard + 3K Expansion + 4 x 8 K Expansion)
If the graphics engine can be converted the rest should be relatively simple.
I didn't mean hidden line removal though, Elite does that anyway. I meant that for each displayed frame only half the lines are drawn at all. You can check this with VICE-C64-emulator and stopping the emulator. Only about half of the visible lines will be shown, that's probably why Elite flickers so much, it's basically 2 x 12 frames instead of 24. Probably they couldn't get to a reasonable speed otherwise.
Porting this to the VIC should be possible. The laser-crosshair is a sprite on the C64, this would have to be painted extra, but with only half the resolution hopefully there's some time left. Does anyone know if the C64-Elite-source is around somewhere? There were some hacks for the C128 and Plus/4 so some people are bound to have reverse engineered this version already. "Only" the main graphics display engine would have to be converted to the VIC and the few sounds and music there is would have to be done from scratch, apart from that Elite is basically a text-game. Elite doesn't use any special C64 powers the VIC doesn't have. The stripped down 24k version for the Acorn Electron proves the game can fit in very small RAM as well. And the VIC-20 has 40K RAM if needed (5K Standard + 3K Expansion + 4 x 8 K Expansion)
If the graphics engine can be converted the rest should be relatively simple.
- Mike
- Herr VC
- Posts: 4941
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:57 pm
- Location: Munich, Germany
- Occupation: electrical engineer
Actually, it is not quite that simple. The line routine in the C64 version of Elite doesn't simply set the pixels, it inverts them. Thus Elite always first draws all lines, pre-calculates all co-ordinates for the next frame, and then uses the same line routine to delete the lines again from the old co-ordinate set - and then loops for the next frame. Of course this method flickers horribly. For a few lines on screen it is however faster than calculating the co-ordinates, clearing the screen, and then plotting the lines.tokra wrote:I meant that for each displayed frame only half the lines are drawn at all. You can check this with VICE-C64-emulator and stopping the emulator. Only about half of the visible lines will be shown, that's probably why Elite flickers so much, it's basically 2 x 12 frames instead of 24. Probably they couldn't get to a reasonable speed otherwise.
Anyway, you'll need at least an off-screen bitmap so you won't see how the lines are plotted. On the C64, you can switch banks when the next frame is completed, so clearing the screen is the only overhead involved. But on the VIC-20, only the built-in RAM can be displayed by the VIC chip. Still, a off-screen bitmap is used in my demo, and copied into the display bitmap with a very fast blitting routine (hint: unrolled loop).
I have seen them, too. It is not quite clear to me, whether these groups really had reverse engineered the source - or rather "simply" adapted the C64 version at those places where accesses to the VIC-II, and SID chip are made. These ports were made easier by the fact that the VIC-II in the C128 is nearly identical, and TED uses the same bitmap addressing scheme.There were some hacks for the C128 and Plus/4 so some people are bound to have reverse engineered this version already.
A port to the VIC-20 would require a complete re-vamp of the geometry engine, so the different output window is honored. Also the aspect ratio of the pixels is not 2:1, rather 1.67:1 for PAL, and 1.4:1 for NTSC, and this really needs to be taken care of. At least the necessary line routine is already there.
Ian Bell has published the sources of the Electron version of Elite, and there's also a "Text Elite" in C. I had taken a look in the assembly sources, and found them rather difficult to follow through, to say the least:
It's just a Small Matter Of Programming.Ian Bell wrote:The BBC Elite sources were initially crammed onto a single sided 40-track disk (100K of data!) and comments and whitespace tended to suffer accordingly. The sources are extremely compact and terse. Some of the routines were developed on an Acorn Atom, hence the preponderance of variable names of the form [letter pair][number].
- robinsonmason
- Vic 20 Enthusiast
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:17 pm
I chose simulations as I'd like to see more Strategy games - I wonder if something like this could be done: http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=6398&d=27&h=0
Cool strategic game, never played anything quite like it.
Something like this might also be nice - but both border on boardgames, another category: http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=9779&d=27&h=0
or this:
http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=2878&d=27&h=0
Cool strategic game, never played anything quite like it.
Something like this might also be nice - but both border on boardgames, another category: http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=9779&d=27&h=0
or this:
http://www.gb64.com/game.php?id=2878&d=27&h=0
I would love to see a port of ARENA by cult games.
1-8 computer or player controlled wizards, spell casting to create creatures that are real or fantasy that can be tested with true sight. Law and Chaos environment which alters spell success. Creatures aligned to each side. Turn based movement and spell casting on a scrolling 2x2 screen map.
This was such a great C64 game. I urge you to try it out
1-8 computer or player controlled wizards, spell casting to create creatures that are real or fantasy that can be tested with true sight. Law and Chaos environment which alters spell success. Creatures aligned to each side. Turn based movement and spell casting on a scrolling 2x2 screen map.
This was such a great C64 game. I urge you to try it out
Vic20-Ian
The best things in life are Vic-20
Upgrade all new gadgets and mobiles to 3583 Bytes Free today! Ready
The best things in life are Vic-20
Upgrade all new gadgets and mobiles to 3583 Bytes Free today! Ready
One of my all time favourite 8 bit games is "Jammin" on the c64.
Simple but original/addictive game play, some great funky tunes including "Seventeen" by the sex pistols .
It always cracked me up when the baddies stole your instrument and ran about playing it out of tune.
Would be nice to see if it could be done on the VIC, so long as it was closer to the c64 version than the crappy one that appeared on the Amstrad CPC.
Simple but original/addictive game play, some great funky tunes including "Seventeen" by the sex pistols .
It always cracked me up when the baddies stole your instrument and ran about playing it out of tune.
Would be nice to see if it could be done on the VIC, so long as it was closer to the c64 version than the crappy one that appeared on the Amstrad CPC.
-
- Vic 20 Amateur
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:21 am
I am suprised this has not been picked up on anywhere (well a search only threw up this thread) but is this for real? Giana Sisters on the Vic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgTYLuCvzMA
The resolution seems about right even if its 30 columns. and that scrolling looks pretty smooth to me. if this gets completed it could be one of the best games to grace the Vic, even if its a port
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgTYLuCvzMA
The resolution seems about right even if its 30 columns. and that scrolling looks pretty smooth to me. if this gets completed it could be one of the best games to grace the Vic, even if its a port
Wow. I really had to rub my eyes, I just couldn't believe this is running on a VIC until I checked the programmers comments.Gary_Leeds wrote: if this gets completed it could be one of the best games to grace the Vic, even if its a port
But I somehow doubt if he will have enough VIC processing time left to put reasonable and fluent action (without sprites) into these wonderful scrolling backgrounds - and how much RAM he will need in the end.
Still, an amazing demo so far, thanks for sharing!
Greetings,
Folko
Very nice looking levels.
Jeff, it looks like it's (a member of?) TRSI's- the group responsible for the demo Going Lowres earlier this year.
Jeff, it looks like it's (a member of?) TRSI's- the group responsible for the demo Going Lowres earlier this year.
I wouldn't doubt (a member of?) TRSI. I'm guessing scrolling is done with the VIC register $9000. If that's the case then there should be a very respectable amount of CPU time left. Not saying I could get fluent sprites with the screen size involved here, but look at some of those effects in Going Lowres! As for RAM, I'm betting this couldn't be single-filed. Not with a 16k expansion anyway.folkoh wrote: But I somehow doubt if he will have enough VIC processing time left to put reasonable and fluent action (without sprites) into these wonderful scrolling backgrounds - and how much RAM he will need in the end.