Denial

16VIC20, so you definitely won't use any emulator? If you change your mind, there's Stella for the Atari 2600.

Thanks Orion70. That's a tricky one, because the flashback 3 was really an emulator, albeit a hardware one, but the 2600 was emulated. Apparently the flashback 2 was the same hardware as the original 2600, just updated a bit. That said, I'm not sure I like the idea of putting a real 8 bit micro up against a PC running an emulator. I might be being overly obsessive in my opinion, but it just feels not quite right to me.

First off, I'm going to see if I can bring my flashback 3 back from the brink.

Time to resurrect a 5 year old thread.
I can see that I never got to the bottom of this.
It seems that I need a re match between the Dragon and the VIC 20, but with the VIC using BOSS.

Also I can't remember if I ever set the VIC 20 against that abomination made by Sinclair.
I fancy Sargon in that match!

SAR - GON
SAR - GON

You could also try the Vic against Beth Harmon

https://www.chess.com/news/view/play-beth-harmon

LOL, good suggestion beamrider. Th eproblem is she isn't genuine 8 bit hardware, therefore she can't play!

Get Ready!

I have already secured a copy of BOSS Chess ready for the Grudge match replay against the Dragon 32.

I expect this match to take place by Monday.
I am hoping to also get in a match between the VIC 20 and the ZX Spectrum, and then if the Spectrum wins (it might) play that against the Dragon.
I suspect the Spectrum would struggle against the Dragon, but I could be wrong.

Is anybody here interested in any of the rounds that don't feature the VIC 20? Once we know the outcome of VIC 20/Dragon/ZX Spectrum, then I'll be moving onto the more advanced 8 Bit machines, namely the BBC Micro and our very own Commodore 64.

16KVIC20 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:39 am I have already secured a copy of BOSS Chess ready for the Grudge match replay against the Dragon 32.

Which version is it? In another thread we're trying to rescue a copy of 1.5 from a .tap

I dusted off my old Fidelity Excellence, and pit it against Sargon II this afternoon. I won't publish the game here because it was frustrating. Excellence is actually a 6502 machine at 3MHz running Sargon, and the position was ridiculously symmetrical. Both machines are pretty aimless that their lowest levels. The Excellence won a rook for a bishop, but then spent ten moves with pointless checks. I cranked the Excellence to level 5 just to get the game over with, and played until the Excellence found mate in 4.

When you play chess programs against each other, how do you decide what levels to use? At higher levels, these games could go for a long, long time.

srowe wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:56 am

16KVIC20 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:39 am I have already secured a copy of BOSS Chess ready for the Grudge match replay against the Dragon 32.

Which version is it? In another thread we're trying to rescue a copy of 1.5 from a .tap

Unfortunately nothing to get excited about, only the one from Zimmers.

chysn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:54 pm I dusted off my old Fidelity Excellence, and pit it against Sargon II this afternoon. I won't publish the game here because it was frustrating. Excellence is actually a 6502 machine at 3MHz running Sargon, and the position was ridiculously symmetrical. Both machines are pretty aimless that their lowest levels. The Excellence won a rook for a bishop, but then spent ten moves with pointless checks. I cranked the Excellence to level 5 just to get the game over with, and played until the Excellence found mate in 4.

When you play chess programs against each other, how do you decide what levels to use? At higher levels, these games could go for a long, long time.

Hi Chysn. Yes, the long times between moves at higher levels is a big problem with these older machines. I'm pretty sure that when I pitched Sargon II on the VIC against Cyrus II on the Dragon, I only got Sargon up to level 3 or 4, and already it was taking 20 minutes a move, I had to give up on it.
I try to match the levels according to time taken, but usually starting at the lowest levels. It's not he most scientific I suppose, but it's quite fun.

The details of the Sargon II Vs Cyrus II matches are upthread, if you're interested.

Did you know about the 'ADAPTED BY ANDY FINKEL' easter-egg that shows up when you press Shift-C=-CTRL at the startscreen ?

I didn't know about that wimoos, I shall certainly be trying it now.
Hertelijk bedanken!

chysn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:54 pmWhen you play chess programs against each other, how do you decide what levels to use? At higher levels, these games could go for a long, long time.

I guess the higher the level, the more interesting the match is. But making it at the highest levels available in the corresponding programs would require playing with emulators in warp speed mode. That's the only feasible way IMO, unless you have plenty of spare time .

orion70 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:45 am

chysn wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:54 pmWhen you play chess programs against each other, how do you decide what levels to use? At higher levels, these games could go for a long, long time.

I guess the higher the level, the more interesting the match is. But making it at the highest levels available in the corresponding programs would require playing with emulators in warp speed mode. That's the only feasible way IMO, unless you have plenty of spare time .

I think it could be quite good fun for people to do that and post their findings, but I'd personally prefer it if I could do it the old school way first.
I have also got the Dragon 32 Forum and the BBC Micro forum involved in this project, there's a load of interest from the BBC forum. I also nee dto stop by Lemon 64, as I did have a thread there 5 years ago...

ROUND 1

ZX SPECTRUM 48K using Sinclair/Psion Chess Vs Dragon 32 using Cyrus Chess

The Spectrum Game has 10 difficulty levels, as opposed to the Dragon's 9.
The first game was played with both machines set at difficulty level 2, and the Dragon playing White.
The Dragon won in 22 moves. +Denotes Check, CM denotes Check Mate. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have recorded the last move made by the old ZX.

Spectrum Dragon

C7-C5 E2-E4
B8-C6 G1-F3
D8-A5+ D2-D4
A5-B6 C1-D2
B6XB2 D4XC5
B2XA1 D2-C3
E7-E6 C3XA1
C6XD4 A1-D4
G8-H6 D1XD4
A7-A5 B1-C3
F7-F6 F1-B5
E6-E5 E1-G1
G7-G6 D4-D5
A8-A7 F1-D1
E8-D8 B5XD7+
F8-D6 D7XC8+
B7-B6 D5-E6
D8-C7 D1XD6+
C7-B8 C5XB6+
B8XA7 B6XA7+
A7-B8 E6-D7+
? D7-B7 CM

The second game was played with the Spectrum on Level 2, playing White, and the Dragon on Level 1 playing Black. In this game the ZX should have had a clear advantage as it was playing on its third level, (0, 1, 2) and playing White, whereas the Dragon wa splaying on its entry level, and playing Black. Even then the ZX could not manage a victory. The game ended after 55 moves when the Dragon declared a Draw.

I really can't be bothered to type in 55 moves that ended in a draw.
So from these two games, I'd say that the Dragon 32 and Cyrus were the clear winners.

What were the programs like to use?

The Spectrum game only used about a third of the screen (if that) for the board and the Graphics weren't very special. There was no option to inverse the board, but it was annotated with letters and numbers, Moves are entered by typing the coordinates eg A7-A5, the dash is automatic.
Annoyingly it only announces Check when it gets the other player in check, not the other way round. As expected from this machine, there is very little in the way of sound apart from a few barely audible beeps. The Spectrum took noticeably a much longer time to play its move than the Dragon did. It often exceeded 5 minutes in game 1.

Cyrus Chess on the Dragon is a much nicer interface, but still not perfect. The board uses the whole screen and is presented in magenta and yellow, which sounds odd, but works really well. Unfortunately, the board is not annotated with numbers and letters, so that's a bit awkward.
Movement is achieved by means of a cursor on the board which is moved by the cursor keys. The cursor is moved, the piece to be moved is selected by pressing ENTER, the cursor is then moved to the destination square, then ENTER is pressed again. The Dragon shows the move, and then makes its move, usually within very few seconds. At any point you can toggle to the scoring screen by pressing the Space Bar, this shows the last 5 moves and various other information. The Dragon shows Check for both sides by showing + after the move.

Overall I would definitely rate Cyrus as the superior product, both in terms of Chess engine and in terms of user experience.

Next game VIC 20 Sargon II Chess Vs ZX Spectrum 48K Sinclair/Psion Chess.