Sargon II Chess

[vicist]

Played Sargon II (White - level 6) against Master Chess (Mastertronic)(Black - 500 minute response time) yesterday.

The game was played in Vice 2.4 (Sargon II in xvic, Master Chess in x64) both at warp (2,500%) and took roughly 5 hours.
The game started with Sargon using pawns, knights and bishops to attack but was met with a fairly feeble defence of 1 pawn, 1knight and queen, which went on the attack but was quickly repelled and then spent about 8 moves trying to get out of trouble, finally having to exchange with Sargon's queen.
The game progressed quite well after that with both sides making pretty decent attack/counter attack moves.
Master Chess at one point looked to have the upper hand, but failed to capitalise on a pretty straightforward exchange of pieces and proceeded to fall apart at the seams.
Sargon II didn't go for the kill and spent far too long trying to mop up all it's opponents remaining pieces, taking up to 15 minutes (even at 2,500% speed) to think about how to capture a pawn when it could easily have backed it's rival's king into the corner to win the the game.
I'm afraid I switched Sargon II off and finished the game myself to avoid the tedium of waiting for it to make moves that had little consequence.

I maybe should have turned off Master Chess half-way through and played against Sargon II instead

[beamrider]

Yes I've noticed that i.e.. it tends to get the upper hand quite quickly but conversion to a victory is needlessly protracted.

[highinfidelity]

If Mephisto can out think Sargon (I don't think it can) I wonder what we would see first, a stale mate or a check mate?

My bet is a stalemate. Supposed that Mephisto can really stand against Sargon II, that is.

The reason why I say so is that it's quite easy to devise a quite effective defense strategy by looking ahead all possible moves and assigning score to each of them, and then choosing the less worse. This is usually well done by computers.

But to win, at chess, you really need strategy. You don't simply need to avoid mistakes, but you need to force your opponent do do some, or to hide under something very evident that you're doing something else less evident but more subtle and more dangerous. You don't need only to look ahead for X layers of possible future moves, or to score the possible loss/gain of each single piece, but to take a general glimpse of the chessboard in its entirety and find an overall attack strategy that will block your opponent in the corner. To do this, you need to be a human ar have a huge huge lot of A.I. built in. This is very well explained in the super classic essay "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter, that of course we all have at home in our library (if you perhaps don't, run outside to buy a copy as it's an absolute must read!!!)

However, while it is well known that Sargon II has some fairly good A.I. (exceptionally good, at its times), I can hardly figure the Mephisto being on the same level. I may be wrong but it seems to me basically a defending machine that knows the rules and doesn't do blatant mistakes. A sparring partner. But I can hardly figure it conceiving a subtle attack strategy.

But of course I may be completely wrong.

[highinfidelity]

Yes I've noticed that i.e.. it tends to get the upper hand quite quickly but conversion to a victory is needlessly protracted.

No surprise. As said above, it takes a lot of A.I. to see the chessboard in its entirety and understand that your opponent is in the corner. It is a very complex problem that for a simple machine as a VIC20 has to be divided in a huge number of simpler problems that a computer can evaluate and score. Sargon II probably can't evaluate the overall game and perform some efficient checkmate-oriented moves until few pieces are left on the chessboard, and there are less small problems to solve or potential threats to defuse.

I think that basically for Sargon II defense come first; attack is secondary.

[16KVIC20]

Well earlier today (actually technically it was yesterday morning!) I cranked up the Mephisto to level C5 and kept the Sargon II equipped VIC 20 at Level 1 for a re match!


Sargon II won again, but it did seem to find it somewhat more difficult. Instead of 17 moves it took 45 moves, and instead of 20 minutes, it took 47 minutes. As others have commented up thread, I also noticed during this game that Sargon was fairly quick at establishing the upper hand, but once it had done so it seemed preoccupied at clearing all the remaining white pieces that it could, rather than going in for the kill with a check mate earlier than it actually did.

Highinfidelity, the Mephisto does make mistakes, certainly at the lower levels it makes some completely idiotic moves; I don't think these are necessarily from AI though, probably more likely just programmed in to make a bad move every so often.

I will now provide (for those interested) the moves that were made:

Code: Select all

Sargon II Chess Level 1 v Saitek Mephisto Level C5

1
C2 – C4
C7 – C5
2
D1 – B3
B8 – C6
3
B3 – G3
F8 – F6
4 
B1 – C3
C6 – D4
5 
C3 – B5
D4 – C2 CHECK
6
E1 – D1
C2 X A1
7 
B5 – C7
D8 X C7
8 
G3 X C7
E7 – E6


9
C7 – E5
D7 – D6
10
E5 – G5
H7 – H6
11
G5 – F4
E6 – E5
12
F4 – F3
E5 – E4
13
F3 – E3
C8 – E6
14
B2 – B3
F6 – G4
15
C1 – B2
G4 X E3 CHECK
16
D2 X E3
A1X B3
17
A2 X B3
O – O – O 

18
B2 – C3
D6 – D5
19
C4 X D5
D8 X D5 CHECK
20
D1 – C2
F7 – F6
21
C2 – B1
D5 – D1 CHECK
22
B1 – A2
D1 X F1
23
F2 – F3
E4 X F3
24
E2 X F3
F1 – F2 CHECK
25
A2 – B1
F2 X G2
26
B1 – C1
E6 X B3

27
G1 – H3
G2 – C2 CHECK
28
C1 – B1
C2 X C3
29
H1 – E1
C3 – C2
30
E1 – H1
F8 – D6
31
H1 – G1
C2 X H2
32
H3 – F4
D6 X F4
33
E3 X F4
H8 – E8 (Mephisto commented as a bad move)
34
F4 – F5
E8 – E3
35
B1 – A1
E3 X F3

36
A1 – B1
F3 X F5
37
B1 – C1
C5 – C4 (Mephisto commented as a bad move)
38
C1 – B1
C4 – C3 (Mephisto commented as a bad move)
39
B1 – C1
H2 – G2 (Mephisto commented as a bad move)
40
G1 – E1
C3 – C2
41
E1 – E7
G2 – G1 CHECK
42
C1 – B2
G1 – B1 CHECK
43 
B2 – C3
C2 – C1
44
C3 – D3
F5 – F3 SII CLAIMS MATE IN 1 MOVE

45
D3 – D4
C1 – C4 CHECK MATE

DURATION: 47 MINUTES.

In addition to this Mephisto also commented on several GOOD moves, I just didn't record those.
I think if I crank Mephisto up to C6 Sargon II will still win, so I think C7 might be the one to try next. I will leave the trusty old VIC and Sargon on Level 1. If we need more juice, there is plenty in the reserve tank!

When I've finished experimenting with the Mephisto I may set Sargon II up against Chess on the ZX Spectrum and the Dragon 32. Is there any point in a Sargon II v Sargon II but VIC 20 Vs C64? Would the only difference be processing power (actually from what I recall that's advantage VIC 20!)

[highinfidelity]

Thanks for the update! The question concerning the C64 is a good one. I ignore if they made some update in the middle, or if the chess engine is exactly the same.

[16KVIC20]

Thanks for the update! The question concerning the C64 is a good one. I ignore if they made some update in the middle, or if the chess engine is exactly the same.

No problem. Hoping for another rematch tomorrow.

[16KVIC20]

I had time for the re match. Sargon II at Level 1 and Mephisto at Level C7, the second highest level.

It was another victory for Sargon II.

Here is the game play:

Code: Select all

Sargon II Chess Level 1 Vs Saitek Mephisto Level C7

1
D2 – D4
D7 – D5
2
C2 – C4
E7 – E6
3
B1 – C3
C7 – C5
4
E2 – E4
D5 X C4 (Mephisto responds OK)
5
C1 – E3
C5 X D4
6
D1 – A4 CHECK
C8 – D7
7
O-O-O
D7 X A4 (Mephisto responds mmm, Good move)
8
C3 X A4
D8 – A5 (Mephisto responds mmm, Good move)

9
B2 – A3
C4 X B3 (Mephisto responds Uh, Uh)
10
D1 X D4
E6 – E5
11
D4 – C4
A5 – E1 CHECK
12
C1 – B2
E1 X F1 (Mephisto responds OK)
13
C4 – C8 CHECK
E8 – D7
14
A2 X B3
D7 X C8
15
G2 – G3
F1 – G2 (Mephisto responds mmm, Good move)
16
A4 – B6 CHECK
A7 X B6 (Mephisto responds mmm, Good move)
17
E3 X B6
G2 X H1 (Mephisto responds OK)
18
G1 – E2
H1 – E1 (Mephisto responds Uh, Uh)
19
E2 – c3
E1 – D2 CHECK
20 
B2 – B1
D2 – C3 (Mephisto responds OK)
21
B3 – B4
A8 – A1 CHECK MATE
SARGON II WINS IN 27 MINUTES.

Mephisto never stood a chance. I might try it on C8 tomorrow, that is the highest level, but I can't see a Mephisto Stalemate on the horizon, never mind a victory.

[TNT]

Is there any point in a Sargon II v Sargon II but VIC 20 Vs C64? Would the only difference be processing power (actually from what I recall that's advantage VIC 20!)

I have C64 Sargon II disassembly somewhere. If I have a free evening or two next week I will assemble it to $a000 area to check if VIC 20 code is the same. C64 has some extra eyecandy but I recall that UI was separated quite well from the AI. C64 version says "Commodore version by Alex Ford", not "C64 version" so my guess is they used almost identical code in both.

[16KVIC20]

OK, thanks TNT, that sounds great. I reckon the game works the same.

Today was the final indignity for Saitek Mephisto. I set it to level C8, which is the maximum, and kept Sargon II on level 1. Sargon check mated in 16 moves, its best yet!

In all games Mephisto has played White and Sargon Black.

Here are the moves:

Code: Select all

1
D2 – D4
D7 – D5
2
C2 – C4
E7 - E6
3
B1 – C3
G8 – F6
4
C1 – G5
F8 – G7
5
G5 X F6
E7 X F6
6
E2 – E3
B8 – C6
7
A1 – C1
O-O-O
8
D1 – G4
D8 – D6
9
C4 – C5
D6 – E7
10
A2 – A3
E6 – E5
11
A3 – A4
C8 X G4 OK, SAYS MEPHISTO
12
C3 X D5
E7 – D8
13
D5 – C3
E5 – D4
14
A4 – A5
D4 X C3 OK SAYS MEPHISTO
15
B2 X C3
F6 X C3 SARGON WARNS CHECK MATE IN 1 MOVE
16
C1 X C3
D8 – D1 CHECK MATE

When I'd finished that I played Sargon II myself, also at level 1. I was checkmated by Sargon, but at least it took 40 moves! I even managed to take its Queen, along with 7 other pieces. Check mate was achieved with two Castles, a knight and a Pawn.

[beamrider]

I wonder how it would fair against gnu chess....

[highinfidelity]

Sargon check mated in 16 moves

Geez!!! That's what a French would call a débâcle!!!

[16KVIC20]

If I can get a working copy of Cyrus Chess for my Dragon 32, I might try it against that next. Should be interesting I think...

[Boray]

But isn't BOSS is the best performing chess game for Vic-20? I thought so.

[orion70]

Both Sargon and Boss easily beat me but I also have the feeling that the latter is tougher.