Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

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Mike
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Mike »

Groovydrifter wrote:that they triggered the execution of the following token in the microcode table of the processor.

As you explain some illegal opcodes have an almost equivalent documented one... but returning to the explanation on the article, this corresponds to a partial execution of the instruction microcode[...]
Actually, the 65xx features a state transition table to sequence the actions taken by each instruction cycle, not microcode.

This is not a matter of tomatos/tomatoes; there is no microcode instruction counter in the 65xx. The STT features (just) 21 input lines, and 138 output lines. The undocumented instructions just happen to trigger combined actions of certain instructions, which would otherwise go separate, as intended.

In case of AAX, STA and STX are executed simultaneously, which results in an wired-AND inside the CPU: as soon as one bit of either A or X is 0, a 0 is also put on the data bus. 8)
I already verified that NTSC kernals boot a PAL board with displaced image and not working IEC port.
The screen displacement is understandable (the correct register init values are different for NTSC and PAL VICs), but would you care to tell me why the IEC bus is not supposed to work? I don't know of any differences in the IEC routines between NTSC and PAL.

Only the RS232 routines happen to use different tables for the baud rates, and the register init value for the jiffy clock is also different, in both cases because of 1.10 MHz (PAL) vs. 1.03 MHz (NTSC). And the jiffy clock runs with 60 Hz on both systems.
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

Your explanation fits more with the text on the article, i called it microcode as that how they explained me the workings of a microprocessor so I named it that way, but the imge in my mind was like what you just said...almost... hehehe

Timings are different as a way to compensate for the diffetences in speed. I think Bo Zimmerman hosts in his FTP a comparison between several VIC-20 and VIC-1001 ROMs. The differences in the timings and screen ubication are two of them. I also built one dual kernel eprom and I mistakenly burnt ome of them intended for NTSC computers... It booted with the text displced to the top and to the left... and the floppy drive did not work.

EDIT: found the comparison and the differences seem to be 4
- a sort of version recorded within the code
- screen geomety parameters
- VIA timer parameters
- RS232 parameters

I don't know if this explains why that NTSC kernel listed the directory but refused to load the files returning a "file not found" (not sure of that) error.

Maybe the different processor speed combined with a fast loader kernal for a NTSC machine running in a PAL one and trying to communicate with a SD2IEC drive explains it...[emoji15]
Last edited by Groovydrifter on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

Well, the headcount now also has a Kernal ROM... lets solder a socket and see if with the PAL good one it shows the boot at last...
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

And this weird a NTSC machine finally boots with a PAL Kernal...

Image

A bit closer...

Image

So now lest burn an EPROM with the correct Kernal an see... weird cyan, looks creamy on NTSC... red looks brown, green is very washed... my NTSC Plus/4 does not look so different...
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

Self explanatory...
Image

Pcb "ratsnest" version hard...[emoji3]

Image

And GORF, of course at the size it was conceived...

Image

So as final account

One dead 6502, already socketed
One dead 6522, already socketed
One dead Kernal rom, desoldered and socketed

An the replacement will be...
One 6502 original or compatible CPU, missing at this moment
One MOS 6522
One TMS2764-250I and the adapter circuit, next to be made...

Probably in the future that EPROM will move to the char rom socket to provide a dual charset setup and the Kernal will be responsability of a 27256 to host 3 or 4 Kernals... the first charset will provide support to two or three of the kernals and the second will fit the last: a VIC -1001 romset.

All this to fit into a case and keyboard already in transit from USA... a first series PET style keyboard VIC-20 that was bought very cheap "for parts/non working"
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

And how possibly could I have forgotten it, the first character on all this thread:

Image

The replacement quartz crystal... still wondering why someone removed it, being a new one very cheap and available by dozens...
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Imperious
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Imperious »

Fantastic stuff Groovydrifter, always a good feeling resurrecting an old Computer.

Try here for a MOS 6502 http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-m ... erCat=4099

You will have to change the shipping location obviously.

6522's http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-6 ... erCat=4099

I recently purchased 10 R6522AP's at about $16 delivered, 2 are currently in my VIC, no problems encountered.

As far as the 65C02 is concerned it was really only Doom that I noticed any problems in, the game never crashed, just had some weird missing graphics. I spent a stupid amount of time tracking down the cause of that only to find it was self inflicted, learn't a lot about how the VIC ticks in the process so definitely not a waste.
One interesting story I came across whilst researching was that when Apple released the Apple2C it broke some older software which had to be fixed. The cause of course was that the "C"
stood for a 65C02 processor.
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Groovydrifter
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Re: Removed Quartz crystal from NTSC board

Post by Groovydrifter »

Imperious wrote:Fantastic stuff Groovydrifter, always a good feeling resurrecting an old Computer.

Try here for a MOS 6502 http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-m ... erCat=4099

You will have to change the shipping location obviously.

6522's http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-6 ... erCat=4099

I recently purchased 10 R6522AP's at about $16 delivered, 2 are currently in my VIC, no problems encountered.

As far as the 65C02 is concerned it was really only Doom that I noticed any problems in, the game never crashed, just had some weird missing graphics. I spent a stupid amount of time tracking down the cause of that only to find it was self inflicted, learn't a lot about how the VIC ticks in the process so definitely not a waste.
One interesting story I came across whilst researching was that when Apple released the Apple2C it broke some older software which had to be fixed. The cause of course was that the "C"
stood for a 65C02 processor.
Interesting links, very cheap stuff, thank you. Today arrived a parcel with a Oric-1 to be fixed inside. Once I open it I'll see wich "flavour" of 6502 processor has, but i think that it is going to be the MOS one. Once I know I'll probably decide wich processors to buy next. They are not so expensive so as not have some of each maker/model to test the compatibility. And if the CM630P is fully compatible it clearly outprices all the others. They are expected to be here next week, I'll keep you informed.
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