Dark Dungeons on Zimmers buggy.

[Ghislain]

Thanks for getting us the fixed version of this game! I just played it and made it this far:



I'm making a floppy disk compilation of RPG games, so I was happy to see a properly-working version of this game.

[robinsonmason]

Thanks! I'm playing the fixed version of "The Dungeons" right now. It's a good game. I find movement confusing though. You can't tell which way you are facing. There is no compass. You can only see three walls, even if there are four exits....you don't know which way is which! An exit might be on the wall to the right of the screen, but that doesn't mean it's the east exit!

This seems to be a problem with some 3D maze / dungeon games.

Basically some assume you are in the actual square and do not include exits to your left or right in your "peripheral vision". So you have no idea if a door is to your left unless you turn to face left. This is like taking a literal top down maze and placing you toward the front of each square, blind to your left and right. It gets even worse when the walls of the maze are not a square deep.

In this game (below) it is not clear to me from this image whether or not there is an open passage to my right without moving one square ahead:



Others may put you a virtual one step back (or assume a larger square space) so you can see the corridor going off to your left (and even grab an object in the square ahead):



For the record, I prefer the latter and find the former confusing, especially if the dungeon is wire-frame or poorly detailed. You pass by a wall or through a door and unless you do an about face you have no idea where you came from/through.

Good game design should make it easy for any player to figure out where they are and not get completely confused by just turning one way or another.

Realms of Quest dungeons are somewhere between the two because they are nicely colored and have enough detail and depth, but I still get lost from time to time. I guess I played too much Dungeon Master back in the day!

[Ghislain]

For the record, I prefer the latter and find the former confusing, especially if the dungeon is wire-frame or poorly detailed. You pass by a wall or through a door and unless you do an about face you have no idea where you came from/through.

Good game design should make it easy for any player to figure out where they are and not get completely confused by just turning one way or another.

Realms of Quest dungeons are somewhere between the two because they are nicely colored and have enough detail and depth, but I still get lost from time to time. I guess I played too much Dungeon Master back in the day!

The early RPGs had limited system resources to work with, which is why they place a tiny wall immediately to your right and left, because they only wanted to depict what is directly in front of the player, and no other details in the line of sight immediately to the right and left. It's a form of cheating when rendering a 3D maze. I confess to using this trick myself

If one gets confused, just imagine that your party/character is placed slightly just enough that they are aligned to the first visible passage would be physically located.

My latest project is creating a compilation disk of VIC-20 RPG games. I'll probably have to make a 'side 2' because side 1 could not fit everything:



I was happy that DARK DUNGEONS got fixed almost at the same time that I started this thing. I also converted Usborne's "Dungeon of Doom" to work with a disk drive (the one that orion70 was kind enough to type in) but I could not fit it on side 1. so side 2 will be "bonus games".

This collection will have a PDF with instructions for every game, along with box and manual art, advertisements that appeared in computer magazines along with essays about RPG games for the VIC-20. There is a number of RPG games for our favorite computer, but the problem is that they are scattered somewhat, and you have to do a bit of searching to find out how to play them, etc. I hope this project will resolve these issues.

**EDIT: I probably should start my own thread on this project, though. But to give an example, I was able to locate a few websites about the game "THE VALLEY":

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/fraser.charl ... index.html
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/11/27 ... he_valley/



This was a type-in game (from "Computing Today", April 1982) that continues to have a cult following to this day. It was available in multiple platforms: QBASIC, Dragon32, TRS-80, etc. And we are fortunate enough to have a version for the VIC-20.

[Mayhem]

Can you link to the Vic20 version you have there? I'd be interested to see how different that translation is to the one published by ASP in 1983. From the screenshots, they look similar, so I'm assuming the ASP release is based upon this translation in some way...

[robinsonmason]

If one gets confused, just imagine that your party/character is placed slightly just enough that they are aligned to the first visible passage would be physically located.

Thanks - I get used to it after a while, and your game is much better that way than, say Epyx's Monster Maze.

My latest project is creating a compilation disk of VIC-20 RPG games. I'll probably have to make a 'side 2' because side 1 could not fit everything:

This is a great idea and looks awesome. I wish I knew how to write disk images to real floppies as I'd love to be able to enjoy those on the real hardware.

This collection will have a PDF with instructions for every game, along with box and manual art, advertisements that appeared in computer magazines along with essays about RPG games for the VIC-20. There is a number of RPG games for our favorite computer, but the problem is that they are scattered somewhat, and you have to do a bit of searching to find out how to play them, etc. I hope this project will resolve these issues.

Fantastic! I was just about to ask that. I may be able to help with some scans. I have The full PDF for Rescue at Rigel if you need it.

I am currently working on documentation and disk images for the full six-part Apshai-related series including Hellfire Warrior, Danger in Drindisti and Keys of Acheron, though the latter three are not available for Commodore systems.

[ral-clan]

I'm really looking forward to this compilation!

I downloaded The Valley from Zimmers' site. It really looks good, and seems like a game I would have played relentlessly when I was 12 years old. But does anyone know what keyboard commands do what?

I have figured out that the number keys control movement in a number-pad orientation. A, B and T seem to have something to do with combat (Attack, Block and ???). "S" casts a spell....that's as much as I have figured out.

[Ghislain]

I'm pretty sure I have an original Dark Dungeons tape. I'll check if I have the documentation.

[EDIT]

Okay I checked and I do have an Anirog game simply called "The Dungeons" which seems to be the exact same game. Unfortunately the instructions on the cassette J-card are not much better than in the game.

It merely lists the same commands shown in the in-game help and says "There are more commands than this but you have to discover them. You need one thousand points and the key to the pass through the exit door from this adventure into THE LOWER DUNGEONS".

I guess "THE LOWER DUNGEONS was never published...?

Is it possible to provide a scan or digital picture of the packaging/instructions? I'd like to put it in the compilation

[Ghislain]

I went through all the keys in THE DUNGEONS and found the following:

Code: Select all

	DOCUMENTED CONTROLS			UNDOCUMENTED CONTROLS
	M	MOVE		(N,S,E,W)	C	CUT FREE
	S	SAY SPELL	(H,P)		D	DROP ITEM
	R	READ SCROLL	(F,H,S)		E	EAT
	A	ATTACK MONSTER		F	FLY
	O	OPEN		(C,D)		G/T	GET/TAKE ITEM
	X	SHOW EXITS			H	HELP SCREEN
	P	DRINK POTION			I	VIEW INVENTORY
	Q	QUIT-SAVE DATA			L	LOOK
	B	BACK TO NEXT COMMAND		Q	QUIT AND SAVE

[ral-clan]

Is it possible to provide a scan or digital picture of the packaging/instructions? I'd like to put it in the compilation

Yup...grab them here (click to enlarge):

[orion70]

My latest project is creating a compilation disk of VIC-20 RPG games. I'll probably have to make a 'side 2' because side 1 could not fit everything:

The definitive collection for the perfect VIC RPG geek . Thanks for this. I'm back from a few days out, but should have some spare time this week. First of all, I published your all-disk version of Dungeon of Doom (aka Write Your Own Fantasy Games) in the Software Releases of 2010.

This collection will have a PDF with instructions for every game, along with box and manual art, advertisements that appeared in computer magazines along with essays about RPG games for the VIC-20. There is a number of RPG games for our favorite computer, but the problem is that they are scattered somewhat, and you have to do a bit of searching to find out how to play them, etc. I hope this project will resolve these issues.

Excellent idea. If you want help in finding manuals, ads, etc, I'm in.

**EDIT: I probably should start my own thread on this project, though.

Absolutely. This is not a post about a single RPG anymore .

Is it possible to provide a scan or digital picture of the packaging/instructions? I'd like to put it in the compilation

Yup...grab them here (click to enlarge):

As for The Dungeons, thank you very much Ral-clan, you revived my need to play this RPG again.

[ral-clan]

Is it possible to provide a scan or digital picture of the packaging/instructions? I'd like to put it in the compilation

Yup...grab them here (click to enlarge):

Note, clicking once on the thumbnails will display a larger image, but to get the original image (slightly larger) you have to click on that second image, in turn.

[Ghislain]

The definitive collection for the perfect VIC RPG geek . Thanks for this. I'm back from a few days out, but should have some spare time this week. First of all, I published your all-disk version of Dungeon of Doom (aka Write Your Own Fantasy Games) in the Software Releases of 2010.

Thanks! I did have to exclude some stuff from side 1 (most notably DoD, which I had ironically worked on to make a disk version).

As for the 'new releases' post', I think you should also put in: "Typed in by orion70" if only for the fact that the disk version didn't really take that long to do. And I even converted the level you designed to a disk SEQ as well, and a way to 'restore' it.

I'm not going to convert the other games to 'save to disk' because they're quite playable without a tape drive. DoD on the other hand was necessary to create a disk version because you need a saved tape game to even boot the main game module. I would have to distribute the compilation (D64) along with a TAP file and it would make it too awkward.

Excellent idea. If you want help in finding manuals, ads, etc, I'm in.

I'll probably be going through my collection of magazine PDF files to see what I can find. But I'll definitely take you up on that offer. I found almost zero stuff on "Baldor's Castle" and simply just copy-pasted some info that was posted on the web from 10 years ago. For "Enchanted Journey"--

I actually found a 32 page pdf for "Rescue at Rigel". The thing is, should the compilation's pdf include the whole thing, or just the pertinent parts? What I could do in the end is just distribute _everything_ with seperate PDF files (where available) into one big gigantic zip file. But the compilation's main PDF would be all that's needed to play the games.

**EDIT: I probably should start my own thread on this project, though.

Absolutely. This is not a post about a single RPG anymore .

I really should create my own thread soon, I don't want to be accused of hijacking the thread. It's just a happy coincidence that I started this project only a little while after people started to talk about Dark Dungeons/The Dungeons.

As for The Dungeons, thank you very much Ral-clan, you revived my need to play this RPG again.

I second that--ral-clan is awesome.

[Ghislain]

Fantastic! I was just about to ask that. I may be able to help with some scans. I have The full PDF for Rescue at Rigel if you need it.

I am currently working on documentation and disk images for the full six-part Apshai-related series including Hellfire Warrior, Danger in Drindisti and Keys of Acheron, though the latter three are not available for Commodore systems.

Cool! I'm looking forward to that.

I already found the 32 page pdf of "Rigel" on the web--thanks!

[ral-clan]

I also have another Anirog game, which might be an RPG:

Zok's Kingdom (original tape).

It seems to take place in Ancient Egypt, or in a pyramid. I'm not sure if it's an RPG because it is a PAL cassette and I have an NTSC system, so I haven't really played it.

Here is a discussion we had about it a while ago:
http://www.sleepingelephant.com/v-web/b ... 06785ccb38

[orion70]

I think Zok's Kingdom is more an arcade adventure than a RPG: you have to collect things and use them properly to solve the game, while avoiding enemies. Something like Cauldron, to give an example.

Thanks! I did have to exclude some stuff from side 1 (most notably DoD, which I had ironically worked on to make a disk version).

DoD is a RPG creator, and should have been included only if someone had the patience to create a full-blown RPG.

I found almost zero stuff on "Baldor's Castle" and simply just copy-pasted some info that was posted on the web from 10 years ago.

I'll take a look at my archive...

What I could do in the end is just distribute _everything_ with seperate PDF files (where available) into one big gigantic zip file. But the compilation's main PDF would be all that's needed to play the games.

I agree. It would be just like separate full booklets, with stories and credits, and a comprehensive summary for everyday use.