Priorities in the VIC community

[PaulQ]

We wouldn't have to put all of our eggs in one basket. The various unique sites could remain on their own servers; in fact, the physical location of the data is irrelevant. What I'm suggesting is that vic20.ca can be the main domain; then this forum could be found at vic20.ca/denial. Of course, it would also still exist at http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... /index.php. vic20.ca/store could link to virtual stores run by our members, or provide a price list of items available for sale by our talented members who build new stuff.

Essentially, build on what we have already; just organize it in a more concise, comprehensive manner.

[Jeff-20]

I understand. What you are suggesting sounds a lot like Classic Video Games Nexus in a way. A good idea. Yet, some sites like Digital Press have established their own brand name among hobbyist without specific relevant domain names. Vic20.ca sounds like a great name from which to sell vic items.

atari2600.com, c64.com, and others attract traffic with good addresses, but I tend to think of Lemon64 before c64 dot com. Is the ultimate goal just to bring more traffic?

[hawk]

I'd just like to make a comment about the emulation of old devices using new technology.

I've been interested in getting my storage happening on SD cards for both my Ataris and my VICs/C64s. But what used to be a strength of the commodore range in it's Hey Day has become a bugbear in the present day. I speak about the commodore's ability to reprogram the disk drive.

To emulate an Atari disk drive (or any other peripheral), all you have to do is implement the interface protocol. How your device handles the storage is up to it. This can be performed by a relatively cheap microcontroller, with little else required.

Because of the way much software written for the Commodores reprogrammed to disk controller to improve the interface in one way or another, emulation of the peripheral requires the emulation of the 6502 and associated memory configuration and BIOS. This requires a more expensive FPGA option, the development of which is beyond most hobbiests.

My knowledge of the internals of the Commodore drives is not that great, but perhaps for the Commodore solution, we need to look at putting the new storage device inside the drive. So that the existing electronics remains, but the SD/CF/HD whatever, replaces just the storage medium.

Devices like the 1541-III and mms2iec exist, but they'll only ever be part of the solution. (I just checked out the promotional video for the 1541-III on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb4DK9C3o88 )

Maybe the disk loader problem is not so great for the VIC-20. The programs are much smaller, and loading time hasn't been as much of an issue as it has with the C64. The programs that come to mind which deviate are Demos for the VIC.

Anyway, thats just an observation that I've made.

[Centallica]

Vic20.ca sounds like a great name from which to sell vic items.

Dot CA is too country specific personally especially if the founder of Denial isn't Canadian and most members are outside of Canada

Is the ultimate goal just to bring more traffic?

There's enough members to make something great but the prefer to lurk than participate...so we need ways to get them to participate somehow..as I said in a earlier post back in Dec 31 2006

Unfortunately, 400 of the 500 have posted less than 7 times here

We're at 860 users (360 new in less than 9 months) so it's definitely not a traffic issue.

I think coming up with a list of ideas and people expressing interest in a idea to participate including encouragement for lurkers to join in even to just give their ideas

There's also past members that have contributed greatly that would be great to have come back too

[gklinger]

A Google search for Vic 20 has commodore.ca as the fourth hit, with the first one being a .net and the second one being a .org, so I don't understand why having a .ca address would make things worse than having a .com one.

I didn't say it would although I think a country specific TLD isn't the best choice as the community is international. My point is that a new domain will have a lower Pagerank than Denial so why start from square one?

How did Kim improve his search result rank?

I don't know exactly because he hasn't said. I use to run a business that was involved in this sort of thing so I could make some educated guesses.

I think I just need more links pointing to us.

There is far more to it than that but yes, this is sad.

As for the eggs in one basket, I don't think it applies. It is trivial to mirror sites or load balance. I agree that having a single portal that people can find easily (meaning has a high Pagerank) is crucial. Simple put, I believe it is easier and better to work with what is already in place rather than starting from scratch with another domain name.

[Jeff-20]

Devices like the 1541-III and mms2iec exist, but they'll only ever be part of the solution.

I didn't even know this existed. I really want one. I don't understand why they no longer sell it. It seems like that would be worth more than gold. The site only says,

Please keep in mind that the 1541-III is not a product, it is a hobby project, for those who whish to use the 1541-III they need to build one themselves (or ask a friend who is handy with a soldering iron).

I guess that doesn't include me. How much do you think it would cost to get one made? It one started a business making these, that person would be rich!

I think I just need more links pointing to us.

There is far more to it than that but yes, this is sad.

Yeah, I never understood this because I know there are many more links to Denial. Wiki, Lemon 64, our member's pages, and more. I just don't get Google.

[eslapion]

Because of the way much software written for the Commodores reprogrammed to disk controller to improve the interface in one way or another, emulation of the peripheral requires the emulation of the 6502 and associated memory configuration and BIOS. This requires a more expensive FPGA option, the development of which is beyond most hobbiests.

I know I'm going, as usual, to get a lot of people disagree with me but...

I think if one should create a new IEC based storage device, what matters is not that it is possible to reprogram it but that it is compatible with standard communication protocals that exist.

Right now, the two more popular standards are the Commodore IEC bus protocol built into the VIC, 64, SX-64, 128, etc... and JiffyDOS.

[Bacon]

I think if one should create a new IEC based storage device, what matters is not that it is possible to reprogram it but that it is compatible with standard communication protocals that exist.

Right now, the two more popular standards are the Commodore IEC bus protocol built into the VIC, 64, SX-64, 128, etc... and JiffyDOS.

I kind of agree. My biggest problem with 64HDD is that it isn't JiffyDOS compatible (you can use it with JiffyDOS but you'll get the standard 64HDD speed). Most of the time, JiffyDOS compatibility is all I need but there are a lot of games and demos (mainly on the 64) that have their own fastloaders that reprogram the diskdrive, and ultimately the solution I want would have to support this too. Anything else will just be a stop-gap measure for me, much the way I view 64HDD.

My ideal system would be a combination IEC to modern computer device with a built-in flash card reader of some kind. This way the modern computer could be used as a mass-storage device, and at the same time you could use the interface as a stand-alone 1541 compatible IEC device.

The software on the PC side should be open source and cross-platform (Jeff, you never mentioned us Linux users in your first post. We are probably just as numerous as the Mac users ).

[Macguyver]

The idea of a standardized site name like vic20.com is appealing and it doesn't have to take away from Denial. I have a feeling that the current owner could be persuaded to give it up based on how vic20.com gets redirected to another site anyway which has nothing in common with our favorite machine.

The recent vic20tapes.org is a good example of this standardized naming concept, at least if it gets anywhere as fleshed out as the similar c64tapes.org

I also agree with the suggestion to have a central repository of all the software that everyone has painstakingly restored from obscurity. Heck, it would be great to have that ROM link on the main Denial page actually work and link to a few other pages that already exist. The next revision of the infamous Gamebase V2.0 would also be a welcome release. I find that software collections of these obscure machines are always a gathering place for fans. That's the one thing we don't have yet and I think it could have a rallying impact. Perhaps even a weekly article with screen caps indicating the recent "find of the week" would be a way to get the crowd more involved.

I will say that I am blown away by the work on the multicart. Amazing and I hope it's not the last of this kind of effort by the community.

Mac

[hawk]

I like the ideas regarding the preservation of software collections. And with this in mind, perhaps we could encourage those of us who aren't able to come up with new masterpieces, to help Arma with his Type-In archive. We could search for the best Type-In programs, and review them. I know that some of the Type-In games published in books were more educational than entertainment, and once typed in, the interest was exhausted, but magazines tended to offer more enticing games.

I only suggest this, as I would find it very difficult to discover a game cassette that hadn't already been archived. However, there are still many Type-In games that are not in any archives. How many magazines and books were publishing programs back in the early eighties? Lots!

I guess since I suggested it, I should get the ball rolling...so off to my magazine archive I go...

Watch this space ->[ ]...OK, well not that exact space...more likely the Games forum.

[ral-clan]

I am a big fan of all the new hardware developments being pioneered for the VIC-20 (MegaCart, Flashcart, Ultimate Expander, 1541 replacements, etc. etc. etc.). But there is one hardware "thing" that I am amazed has not been addressed: fixing the paddle jitter on old VICs. All the old VICs suffer from paddle jitter due to component age. I don't have the expertise to fix it unfortunately, but it must be a simpler fix than designing a cartridge, right?

I am a little amazed that this hasn't been solved yet, because I would think people would be interested in getting their VIC-20s fully working before adding peripherals, etc.

Either an internal or external (i.e. something that plugs in between the paddle and the joystick port) would be welcome, and I would certainly buy this so I could play all my old paddle games (including the great port of PONG) the way they were meant to be played.

[eslapion]

...But there is one hardware "thing" that I am amazed has not been addressed: fixing the paddle jitter on old VICs. All the old VICs suffer from paddle jitter due to component age. I don't have the expertise to fix it unfortunately, but it must be a simpler fix than designing a cartridge, right?

...

In reality, because of the analog and digital mixture of components used in the 6560 or 6561, fixing this is not simple at all.

Instead of a potentiometer that passively lets more or less current flow to charge a capacitor, have to have a digital apparatus that will either let no current at all pass then cause a short circuit for a very brief period of time depending on very specific conditions.

This sort of "active" digital paddle would also more than likely be incompatible with the 64.

This is more or less what the 1351 mouse does on the 64 and because of timing differences, it doesn't work on the VIC.

Its a complex problem to solve.

[gklinger]

I've been curious about the Tandy/Radio Shack Color Computer 3 for a long time and I've been thinking about buying one so I started searching around for information.

OT: I got my CoCo 3. See here, here and here. Yay!

[MacbthPSW]

OT: I got my CoCo 3. See here, here and here. Yay!

More OT: Cool, I've got a CoCo 1, 2 and 3. Don't think I've done much with them besides play some cart games I have. Let me know if you find anything neat to do with it/them

[jcompton]

Maybe this isn't exactly the question you were asking, but Jeff, I think your priority should be making it easier for people to discover and play your games.

ECCC '07 was something of a revelation about the VIC for me--in part from some of the stuff I saw on the megacart, but mostly from seeing your games, and how people (myself included) reacted to your games. I can honestly say that I haven't been as excited about the VIC since ~1984, when I first saw one.

But, I can't easily locate your stuff on the site to pass it on to others or to find it for myself! Why doesn't the Denial main page have links to individual game pages for all the Denial/Jeff-20 games? Or the wiki, even?

Your stuff is too good. Give it some spotlight.