Sold: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

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Barney
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by Barney »

Is another run of this cartridge going to happen in the near future?

Just putting in my request now - I would like to buy one when they're available. Thanks.
SkydivinGirl
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by SkydivinGirl »

Hi Barney!

I'll put your name on my list. I have enough PCBs for another run of 25 units but I will need to pre-sell at least 13 of them before I will commit to doing the run.

Thanks!

Heather
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

Just wondering: Did you test the new revision for the Final Expansion for crosstalk? This has been an issue for Final Expansion, especially on NTSC and as such it will not run DOOM for example which needs 35K RAM. See here:

http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... 976#p75976
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e5frog
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by e5frog »

No special considerations have been taken in regards to that, I know I have one computer that Doom doesn't work on, I believe I used the Mega Cart, it worked on two others but not the usual one.

The crosstalk.prg - it never really says it's "OK" it tells BLK x SEG y PRESENT and then READY soon after a SPACE is pressed. I assume it will tell if there's a problem?

EDIT:
My tricky computer that doesn't want to run Doom - I think it didn't even start - reports crosstalk at least two times from BLK1,2,3,5 to BLK0.

Trying next one...

EDIT2:
Older VIC, with PET keyboard, no crosstalk reported at all - same FE3 used.

EDIT3:
About the same as the last one, Swedish char ROM, no crosstalk reported.

So... my known quirky computer reports problems, the other two don't, not sure if there's a problem with the FE3, the VIC-20 or it's a result of the combination.
All the three computers are of the 9VAC only "handwarmer" version, seems I need to look into why the one with the more modern keyboard (that actually works properly) acts up.


I have crosstalk reported on the first computer also when using a Mega Cart as memory expansion.

EDIT4:
Moving all the socketed chips (2x6522, VIC, CPU, UD7, UE11, UE12) from the non-working machine to a working machine - machine still works. So it seems not to be related to these chips. I'm leaning mostly towards a logic chip.
The non working machine with the socketed chips from the other machine still reports the same crosstalk. I also have a problem with characters popping up on screen now and then, I should try the VIC-20 diagnostic harness for the first time on this one...

EDIT5:
VC-20 DIAGNOSTIC has been running on the troublesome computer - everything is reported to be OK... but I guess it doesn't test for crosstalk.
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

Yes, crosstalk.prg does not show OK, since it can only prove errors, not if there are no errors. I suggest running the crosstalk a few times or even endlessly for at least an hour to see if crosstalk-errors pop up.

I have only 2 machines to test, both with DIN-power plug, one NTSC, one PAL. Both work fine with MegaCart but only the PAL one works with Final Expansion. The NTSC-machine has crosstalk with FE3.

If I remember correctly from other 32K expanders you need to connect to VR/W instead of CR/W-pin. See also this thread. Not sure if this can be applied to the FE3.
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mrr19121970
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by mrr19121970 »

I have 2 PAL CR machines that have 'crosstalk'
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

mrr19121970 wrote:I have 2 PAL CR machines that have 'crosstalk'
With what expansions? Final Expansion? Or others as well?
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by mrr19121970 »

I don't have FE3 (yet). But k3ys RAM expansion exhibited this, so I had to cut a trace and install a bridge.
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

Ok, but in that case I'd say the expansion was at fault, not your VIC.
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rgrocha
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by rgrocha »

Put my name on the list, please!

I'll send a PM with full details now too.
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e5frog
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by e5frog »

I have a RAM expansion similar to the dorktronic one shown here (eaxctly the same but no dorktronic-text):
http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... 3ys#p86202
I'd be surprised if my troublesome machine would work with that instead but I could try, I think there's actually something wrong with the motherboard - so no definite proof there's this problem with this version of the FE3 yet.

So you change from the usual Cartridge Read/Write to VIC Read/Write instead (next pin on the right), what actually happens then, do they have different timing? Or is a memory expansion supposed to use VR/W from start?

If this is the solution (I'd like to actually try a machine with this problem prove that a change to VR/W will and solve it first) then it's not difficult to change.

The current Crosstalk-test can't really be run continuously, it wasn't written for that, if there's no fault after one round it just ends - so one needs to make some changes for that. Don't know if I got the latest version, I'll redownload and try again:
http://www.tokra.de/vic/doom/crosstalk.prg


EDIT
Any tip on finding a solution inside the computer when having these problems? I was getting random characters pop up even when looking at a liste BASIC listing.
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mrr19121970
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by mrr19121970 »

tokra wrote:Ok, but in that case I'd say the expansion was at fault, not your VIC.
Maybe but I was testing 3 VICs at the time. Only 2 displayed an issue.
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by e5frog »

My Dorktronic RAM resulted in even more crosstalk this time from other BLK > BLK5 as well, MegaCart and FE3 only had > BLK0 errors.

But that's when it's set to 32k+3k - which doesn't seem to be a standard memory setting, did someone just try the 32k+3k mode at one time and it seemed to work - on that computer even though it's not a supported expansion RAM method?
PDF from Dorktronic doesn't include 32k+3k as a standard setting, when just running 32k (no BLK0) I get no crosstalk errors at all.

Just asking as I don't know, not very experienced with VIC-20.

Are we chasing something that's not supposed to work but works on some computers?

I'll rejumper my Dorktronic to VR/W and see how that works, will update in this post if there are no other posts.

EDIT: No, changing Dorktronic to VR/W didn't help on my quirky VIC-20 (but I didn't expect it to) same kind and amount of errors as when it was running as CR/W.
Result is I have less errors with MegaCart and FE3 than the Dorktronic in 32k+3k mode.
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

Dorktronic's expansion only has 32K RAM on board and will use the the same memory physically if you activate 32K+3K. As such you will and must receive crosstalk in that configuration between BLK5 and BLK0.

FE3 and MegaCart on the other hand (and also UltiMem) support full expansion of 35K and there BLK0 and any other BLK must not produce crosstalk.
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tokra
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Re: Pre-Orders: Final Expansion 3 Rev 11

Post by tokra »

e5frog wrote:The current Crosstalk-test can't really be run continuously, it wasn't written for that, if there's no fault after one round it just ends - so one needs to make some changes for that. Don't know if I got the latest version, I'll redownload and try again:
http://www.tokra.de/vic/doom/crosstalk.prg
Yes, that's the latest version. You can just type

Code: Select all

20 goto 11
after loading to let it run endlessly. I'd say whether you get crosstalk or not depends on the VIC-20 as well as the expansion, however apparantly if the expansion is designed correctly it will not show crosstalk on any VIC-20. Obviously the deeper reasons as to why crosstalk shows up need to be explored. Interestingly even the UltiMem apparantly had the crosstalk-issue, but Jim fixed this after being made aware of the problem.
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